Why not going beyond X and K?

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fernandoamartin
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Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 10 Dec 2013 21:32

I really appreciated the humble beginning solydxk developers gave to it recognizing the influence of LMDE and saying they won't forget the origins. However different distros foten end-up acquiring relevant differences. So I would like to give a suggestion to developers, who happily, seem to be very active in the forums.
Now that SolydXK is growing why not making it a multiple desktop distro instead of only a KDe and XFCE distro?
There is support for many desktop environments in the repo's. For example, while Mint seems to be stopping supporting Gnome, Solyd has it fully in the repos. So we could have a SolydG too. And in the repos we find Enlightenment, Fluxbox and others.
If the team would like to do it Solyd could even be synchronized with repos containing Mate and Cinnamon. Even though LMDE already has those two last desktops on it we would not end up with the same product since Solyd has a more organized cycle of monthly updates.
For example, I myself am currently using SolydK with XFCE on it also. One for configurability and beauty and other for speed and lightness.
What do you think about the idea of extending support for other environments? ;)

rokytnji
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby rokytnji » 10 Dec 2013 21:56

LOL, join the team and make it so. It is easy to talk the talk. A lot harder to walk the walk.

http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=774

http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2242

Between support on these forums. Maintaining their own repo. I am amazed they offer KDE, a business edition, and tackle
testing with the small team they have.

Happy Trails, Rok

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 10 Dec 2013 23:05

At the risk of presuming too much, and knowing what I know so far about the team here, I think that if they had any extra time at all it would probably be spent bettering what they have instead of trying to spread themselves too thin. This question has been asked many times, and I think this thread, and especially these two posts, say it best:

http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=601#p6434

http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=601#p6440

Like you, I also admire the reasoning behind the creation of SolydXK. I really enjoyed reading its history when I stumbled upon it out there on YouTube whilst perusing LMDE videos. The choice of KDE and XFCE was a big part of that, as was the decision to stick only with these two DEs and not to deviate. All the decisions made since its creation have been aimed at improving what's here instead of going overboard or shooting off in too many different directions. It's been done right, and for the right reasons.

All that said, the beauty of it is that you get to do anything you want with it, and there are myriad posts across the board from folks who are doing exactly that. As you say, Cinnamon, Lxde, Mate, Razor-qt, Openbox, Fluxbox, Enlightenment -- you name it, folks are doing it here somewhere.

Maybe, as rok said, you can start a CE of your own, or build your own ISO to suit; from your post it looks as if you have the right idea and a good start already. We'd all love to see the results, I'll probably download it and use it myself! :D

-- Dave

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 11 Dec 2013 00:59

I created this topic not because I think SolydXK is missing anything. It's because I'm amazed that only in some months it's already No 40 in distrowatch! So I imagined that spreading to other DE's would help it please several tastes and maybe grow even more. But since Schoelje is a business consultant he knows business techniques better than me.
Being honest I'm not a programmer so I can't create a significant respin of solydxk and even if I did I only have a 300kbps internet connection that probably would not allow me to upload it.
But I really have tried to do something similar to what I said.
I already used Enlightenment on it but didn't like it. Now I'm using X and K at the same installation and tried to create an iso from it using remastersys. The iso worked but the installation from it had terrible results.
I also read those topics before:
http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=774
http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2242
But I have to recognize that I didn't succeed following the instructions and I really didn't understand how solydxk constructor works, wether it builds from the installed system or from the on-line repos, if it does a job similar to remastersys. I didn't understand it.
And now I'm planning to try Gnome 3, although I hated it the first time I tried, but just out of curiosity to see if it improved.
My only frustration is that I didn't succeed installing mate on it. I learned linux in mandrake 10 with kde and gnome 2 side by side, so instead of xfce I would feel more familiar having kde and mate to remember my origins.
And after all I'm glad with solydxk exactly because I can do anything with it without having to do the annoying task of re-installing the system to have a new version. :)

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 11 Dec 2013 01:14

fernandoamartin wrote:I'm not a programmer so I can't create a significant respin of solydxk and even if I did I only have a 300kbps internet connection that probably would not allow me to upload it.
But I really have tried to do something similar to what I said.
I apologize Fernando, now that I re-read my last, it sounds like we ganged up on you.

I'm in the same place you are. Not a programmer or developer, and like you I don't like Enlightenment... I don't like Gnome 3.x either. Tried Tails and SolusOS, both Squeeze/Gnome 2.x, I liked those a lot. :) I guess I'm in the same camp as many other folks I've been reading about. Gnome 3 hater, Gnome 2 lover... Maybe Mate then, later on.

SolydXK-constructor will be a big struggle for me as I don't have much in the way of Linux experience at all. Gonna need it though; I'll bite that bullet soon I guess...

Been into computing all my life, but only just started with Linux after I retired. Been playing around with it since July, and it didn't take long for me to decide on Solyd as a "home distro" as it were. I go overboard with the fanboy crap sometimes! :oops:

I've had great fun experimenting with all kinds of things, DEs, compositing, finding Linux alternatives to you-know-what, too many fun things to play with!

I guess when all is said and done the only important thing for me is having a good time with it! :lol:

-- Dave

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 11 Dec 2013 12:22

Ok. It's alright. We really are in the same place.
I really find it funny to try many linux alternatives.
SolydXK developers were humble recognizing their limitations and it's commendable. But deep down inside solydxk is doing a different job because all the major distros are based on cycles of new releases and the few ones who offer rolling or semi-rolling releases warn that it will not be as stable as the fixed releases.
So solydxk really took the challenge of carrying on the concept or semi-rolling release while offering organization and stability. This is why I chose it as my current distro. I had some hard moments confingurating it but they were still less frustating than the mess we get after updating an installed system to a "new release" or installing that "new release" from scratch.
After all this is why I would like to see solydxk grow.

Fargo
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby Fargo » 11 Dec 2013 19:33

As stated, with the limited man power, I think its best to stick to the 3 editions we currently have (SolydX, SolydK, SolydKBE) Howerver, if I were to dream, here is what I would recommend keeping in mind for the future.

I appreciate only having 2 desktops. That keeps things simple. One desktop for older hardware or for those who want a lighter desktop (XFCE) and one for those who want all the features (KDE). I am a KDE user but I also like XFCE. As far as light desktops go I think its my favorite. However, from my limited understanding, these two desktops are are as different as KDE and Gnome underneath. Especially since XFCE uses the Gnome GTK libraries and stuff where KDE is based on Qt. If it was my distro (which it clearly is not) I would be keeping an eye on LXDE-QT or KlyDE. By focusing on Qt desktops I think more of the underlying architecture and programs would be shared and the two Solyd offereings could be more similar and would make maintenance and trouble shooting easier. I don't know if KlyDE will ever amount to anything or not. But with the merger of LXDE and RazorQT, I expect to see a fantastic DE from them in the next few years. For the sake of simplicity, that is the other DE evenvironment I would consider.

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 11 Dec 2013 21:07

Fargo wrote:I don't know if KlyDE will ever amount to anything or not.
Seems he has been working on it for an awfully long time. Yr right, may not come to anything. Took a brief look on Slashdot, Wow, that sounds great! KDE with no stinkin nepomuk or akondai! And whatever else... Be fun to try.
Fargo wrote:But with the merger of LXDE and RazorQT, I expect to see a fantastic DE from them in the next few years.
I installed Siduction/RazorQT on another partition, been playing with it for a couple days now. I like that RazorQT! I also can't wait to see what they cook up together with the LXDE folks. ;)

And after a fun day of going out to play, it sure is nice to come back home! :)

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 12 Dec 2013 17:35

Well, it seems that we all have many ideas but solydxk team has their recognized limitations.
So we could go beyond plans and dreams and share what we have been able to do about it: what DE's we installed, what repos we used, compilations tools if any etc.

My first experience is that has succeed is:
1- download solydk and install it.
2 - use kde to configure anything I want because it has plenty of options.
3 - install xfce from repos, enter on it and configure it too.
4 - be free to use any of them at will.
5 - and take care not to launch a kde application inside xfce. it may change the fonts config of kde making us having to adjust it manually.

Fargo
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby Fargo » 12 Dec 2013 18:56

fleabus wrote:I installed Siduction/RazorQT on another partition, been playing with it for a couple days now. I like that RazorQT! I also can't wait to see what they cook up together with the LXDE folks. ;)

And after a fun day of going out to play, it sure is nice to come back home! :)
Yeah I tried RazorQT on Pardus about a year ago and REALLY liked it. I was actually a bit sad when they merged with LXDE because I was afraid the good things in Razor would be lost to make it just like LXDE. I hope thats not the case. Not that LXDE is bad, but Razor was better. So I hope they can really come together to make a really nice DE. I haven't looked at anything since the merger.

If you want to have some fun, download RazorQT and install it on top of SolydK. RazorQT works with the Kwin window manager. So you get all the nice effects of KDE without a lot of the bloat. I tried it with Mepis way back when and it worked great. As I recall it cut my memory usage nearly in half. I hope that LXDEqt keeps it working with Kwin as I found RazorQT on top of Kwin to be a nice little setup. Have fun.

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 12 Dec 2013 20:00

I tried razor when I used mint 14 but I didn't understand why you and other people say you get effects similar to kde without bloat.
Razor really loaded faster but it looked very like windows 2000, not with all the bells and whystles kde has and on my netbook razor consumed as much battery as kde.

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 12 Dec 2013 20:03

Well, it seems I'm finding a way to what I've been desiring.
A guide on how to install mate on debian.
http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download
After messing with synaptic I found that if we select wheezy repo we get broken packages but if we use jessie repo all apckages fit.
Now i just need a time to backup my system first, make the real install and try to see if it really works.

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hushpuppy
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby hushpuppy » 12 Dec 2013 20:40

fleabus wrote:I'm in the same place you are. Not a programmer or developer, and like you I don't like Enlightenment... I don't like Gnome 3.x either. Tried Tails and SolusOS, both Squeeze/Gnome 2.x, I liked those a lot. :) I guess I'm in the same camp as many other folks I've been reading about. Gnome 3 hater, Gnome 2 lover... Maybe Mate then, later on.
Some of us love Qt and hate KDE and Gnome 2/3. At least Razor gives the professional look of Qt without the KDE bloat; and without the quick fixes to gnome to make it almost work.

Unfortunately, some very useful Qt apps, notably qtfm, qterminal and qtermwidget, are missing, and there are one or two missing update-alternatives and package name convention differences.

The good news is that qtfm, qterminal, and Hugo Pereira's 3rd party apps compile and install cleanly. The only thing missing is peer-reviewed testing.

Obviously, Razor doesn't have all the bells and whistles of KDE, but it should be lighter and faster. And in time, as lxde-qt matures, it should make a better alternative.

ETA: It might also be worth noting that Debian officially recognizes only three desktop environment sections: Gnome, KDE, and Xfce. As far as the possibility of creating a Razor/LXDE-Qt CE is concerned, it would be very tempting to create an unofficial Qt-based section.
Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum (Without music, life would be a mistake) - Friedrich Nietzsche

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 13 Dec 2013 00:19

hushpuppy wrote:Some of us love Qt and hate KDE and Gnome 2/3.
Having reread all of what I said above, on second thought I spoke wrongly here... With a bit more accuracy; If I had to use gnome I'd pick 2x, but I'm not actually a fan. It was interesting to try 2.x, I wanted to see what everyone was raving about! :)
hushpuppy wrote:At least Razor gives the professional look of Qt without the KDE bloat ... Obviously, Razor doesn't have all the bells and whistles of KDE, but it should be lighter and faster. And in time, as lxde-qt matures, it should make a better alternative.
One of the many reasons I'm here is KDE and XFCE. These two have become de-facto favorites. In general I do prefer Qt. Razor+Lxde? I'm excited by the merger but confess to a bias towards Razor, and the hope that what we end up with when the dust settles is more like a sort of "Razor-QT on steroids" :D
hushpuppy wrote:As far as the possibility of creating a Razor/LXDE-Qt CE is concerned, it would be very tempting to create an unofficial Qt-based section.
...And there's an especially intriguing idea. :)

-- Dave

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 13 Dec 2013 01:04

ETA: It might also be worth noting that Debian officially recognizes only three desktop environment sections: Gnome, KDE, and Xfce. As far as the possibility of creating a Razor/LXDE-Qt CE is concerned, it would be very tempting to create an unofficial Qt-based section.[/quote]

Very interesting point! This is why SolydXK, an official debian derivative, has only kde, xfce and gnome fully in their repos. Other DE's are absent, simplified or incomplete.
And the growth of xfce also understandable. Some years ago there was much discussion about what was better: kde or gnome (2.x)? When gnome 3 displeased many users xfce became a good alternative to it.

But anyway we can do much in solydxk adding repos and trying whatever we like.

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hushpuppy
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby hushpuppy » 13 Dec 2013 20:43

fernandoamartin wrote:But anyway we can do much in solydxk adding repos and trying whatever we like.
And if it isn't there, or broken, we can fix it.
"SolydXK, Linux. A macbook barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic machine."
Yes, we can. ;) Guess who's been watching too much old tv? :oops:

zerozero has a nice introduction to packaging, with plenty of useful links to follow.

We can create our own unofficial sections for larger projects, although they may not be accepted by Schoelje into Solyd repo's. There's a post somewhere that explains how to use ar to unpack a .deb and modify debian/control and repack it. If someone has a link? The good news is that synaptic will automatically recognize new sections when it encounters them. When building or modifying existing packages, it should be relatively straight forward to write a bash "for loop" and an awk or sed one-liner (or use perl, if you're into sledgehammers) to change the control section to something special-interest related. As already mentioned, the SolydXK and other Desktop Environments is very useful reading.

Okay, that was a bit rambling, but without an initial question, there will never be any answers. Without an initial push, there will be no momentum. To quote the greatest philosopher after Nietzsche:
Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.
Or, in the words of Steve Vai, just go for it!
Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum (Without music, life would be a mistake) - Friedrich Nietzsche

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 13 Dec 2013 22:54

hushpuppy wrote:Okay, that was a bit rambling,
To quote Dave Smith, the greatest philosopher since Frank Zappa:

"There is no rambling, only good information which illuminates the path to better information."
hushpuppy wrote:but without an initial question, there will never be any answers. Without an initial push, there will be no momentum.
It was noted during Professor Smith's disquisition on the subject of "Unix at Home" in the SolydXK Lecture Hall last Monday that he is capable of inexhaustible momentum without the slightest initial push, and indeed of astute theoretical analysis without an initial question! He is a truly astounding individual.
.
.
.
.
.
:mrgreen: :twisted: :lol: <takes bows to thundering applause from his many students> :lol: :twisted: :mrgreen:

rokytnji
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby rokytnji » 13 Dec 2013 23:14

http://s751.photobucket.com/user/rokytn ... 0.mp4.html

Just a real short video I made showing how caja file manager takes over in Fluxbox and ruins right click fluxbox menu functions.
It takes xkill to restore fluxbox back to normal. Closing caja aint gonna cut the mustard. If I want a Mate/Fluxbox,
SolydMF. It is gonna take some hand massaging beyond my skillset, and, I am not too bad at troubleshooting and customizing anything I set my mind on to do. So sticking with a base install and building up from there with only one
DE or WM at a time seems the best way to go IMHO.

See. Headaches can occur when spicing up a install because one thing can effect another.
Good luck with the "nike saying" because I still say it takes some skill to walk the walk.
That is why I am careful when I talk the talk.

This stuff I did as just a study to see what would happen. I am not going to build no spinoff.

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hushpuppy
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby hushpuppy » 13 Dec 2013 23:20

Bad Dave for editing his post :lol:
fleabus wrote: :mrgreen: :twisted: :lol: <takes bows to thundering applause from his many students> :lol: :twisted: :mrgreen:
The sound of one hand clapping is indeed loud to those who can truly hear! :ugeek: Anyway, for youngsters who really want to grok: The Tao of Programming.
Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum (Without music, life would be a mistake) - Friedrich Nietzsche

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 13 Dec 2013 23:24

rokytnji wrote:See. Headaches can occur when spicing up a install because one thing can effect another.
I always run one desktop/wm per install myself. If I tried to use multiple in the same install I'd get confused and forget what I was running, and probobly run something that would bring it crashing down, or cause problems, and then have trouble figuring out what messed with what.

-- Dave


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