Why not going beyond X and K?

Questions about SolydXK: forum, project, distribution, etc..
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Gonzalo_VC
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby Gonzalo_VC » 04 Jan 2014 15:18

It may be looked as not nice to post something from other distros, but as I say SolydXK must remain solid and only with these 2 DEs, for the ones that like or need LXDE I would recommend Aptosid and Siduction (Debian unstable) or Sparky Linux, on the testing branch (check them out in Distrowatch).

Don't be a pirate, nor a slave. Use GNU/Linux!
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SolydXK, GALPon MiniNo, PCLinuxOS, Xubuntu



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zerozero
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby zerozero » 04 Jan 2014 21:54

we appreciate what Gonzalo does with and for SolydXK but we don't to leave Solyd to have LXDE (specially not LXDE)
bliss of ignorance

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Gonzalo_VC
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby Gonzalo_VC » 04 Jan 2014 23:05

zerozero wrote:we appreciate what Gonzalo does with and for SolydXK but we don't to leave Solyd to have LXDE (specially not LXDE)
Me neither! don't misunderstood me :shock: I was pointing others that way, in the sense that they have Debians with other DEs too.
I think is very meritory and hard to keep these 2 (KDE and XFCE) working fine and with a visual identity to make "a distro". So, despite all other DEs are fine, somehow, let other people worry and work with them. CrunchBang is the house of OpenBox, LMDE is for Cinnamon and MATE, Lubuntu and others for LXDE... and some more universal distros as father Debian and others I have mentioned (Aptosid and Siduction) have more than 2 DEs.

Cheers!

Don't be a pirate, nor a slave. Use GNU/Linux!
GNU/Linux user 451206
SolydXK, GALPon MiniNo, PCLinuxOS, Xubuntu



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hushpuppy
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby hushpuppy » 05 Jan 2014 20:00

For those of us who consider both kde and gnome inherently flawed, finding a suitable distribution is quite a task. The advantage Solyd has begins with its founders and is complemented by the community of users. Solyd provides a base to build on. Realizing that SolydX will become harder to manage (from this user's perspective) as gnome becomes more unusable - if not more unstable - ought to mean looking for a different distribution.

The Solyd base itself isn't (that) flawed. With Solyd, we have a choice of display managers, window managers, session managers, and all sorts of fixes and workarounds to make them usable. Out of the box, depending on hardware, it (mostly) works.

The awkward part is working around debian's design and policies. The awkward part is how there is no single upstream standards philosophy. Debian is too complex to maintain. Distributions - such as Solyd - that choose to focus on specific desktop combinations can take the upstream chaos and fine tune their products.

It is because Solyd will never stray from X and K that makes developing an alternative on top of a very stable base that much easier. It is because SolydXK is put together so well, because of the founders' hard work -- and the involvement of the community -- that it is possible to look at other desktop environments.

Distributions sometimes make promises that they can't deliver. I've worked my way through slackware, red hat, suse, mandrake, ubuntu, and mint (especially mint) to name a few that failed. Solyd is the first for a long time that I'm really happy with.

But the truth - as I see it - is that KDE and gnome are either bloated or broken beyond repair -- just looking at the dependences shows just how badly:
dep-graph-kde-simple.svg.gz
kwin dependency graph with no recommends
(145.89 KiB) Downloaded 116 times
dep-graph-kde-complex.svg.gz
kwin dependency graph with recommends
(148.06 KiB) Downloaded 131 times
dep-graph-xfce4-simple.svg.gz
xfwm4 dependency graph with no recommends
(20.33 KiB) Downloaded 119 times
The advantage of maintaining an alternative desktop to K or X but staying with Solyd instead of going to another distribution is control. I can avoid installing anything KDE. I can choose to install a display manager not encumbered with Canonical licensing restrictions. I can install a desktop environment that is lightweight and based on a professional toolkit with clear design policies. I can build my own components to have a lightweight, usable system that hasn't been held back - let alone touched - by debian's policies. I can control my own repositories, packages, and build processes, on a stable, Solyd base.

Yesterday, I posted a rant, hitting Submit instead of Preview by mistake, and deleted it because it didn't represent properly what I wanted to write. Sometimes, I feel strongly enough to try again. My intention is not to attack anyone. Far from it -- if it wasn't for this community, trying other desktop environments wouldn't be possible, and the new quarterly update cycle will make maintenance even easier. Perhaps this is even the best time to try them out -- before they're imported into debian testing and left to stagnate through neglect.
Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum (Without music, life would be a mistake) - Friedrich Nietzsche

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kobros
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby kobros » 05 Jan 2014 23:17

Debian policies and standards deserve great merit, although I do understand (some of) the criticisms. Let's not forget that all distros that are 100% debian-compatible (including SolydX/K) are developed and built on a debian base, using debian tools and debian methods. That such distros are improved upon much faster and (generally) are much better configured than Debian itself. Basically these distros are built on the shoulders of Debian, KDE, Xfce, LibreOffice, Firefox and the likes of them. And are then improved upon by their developers and their community. Not the other way around.
That's why I do not understand the Debian bashing in the previous post.

SolydXK intends to stick to only Xfce and KDE versions. That's OK with me, I don't need nor expect another Solyd DE-flavor.
If I want to use a debian-based distro that offers a choice of light DE's, is 100% based on Debian and works fine, then I boot antiX. And there are more lightweight distros to choose from.

Another thought: Community members may create their own lightweight DE distro, using SolydX/K as a starting point.
Linux User #312596.
Mepis/Debian/antiX/MX/Win7

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Gonzalo_VC
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby Gonzalo_VC » 05 Jan 2014 23:41

Guys, your arguments and experience are good. I respect them and you.

I agree that Debian and its policy deserves respect. It is no coincidence that 80%+ distros are their derivatives!!
I don't know if KDE is that buggy. I know is huge. However it works almost flawless for me with SolydK. I have been experiencing crashes of Libreoffice lately (when trying to save a document it closes unexpectedly!?), but I don't know why. It happens in my main SolydK 64 machine at work and can be Lo's fault.
Apart from that, everything is fine.

As many have put, above, if you (fellow users) want and can install another DE, just do it. In GNU/Linux is so easy and most of the times it works just fine

LXDE is light and quite nice. I use it partially in other distros (PCLinuxOS in a Core 2 PC that is used as a files server at work, and MiniNo in a revived P III machine with 256 MB of RAM).
RazorQT was very interesting too.
But now these 2 DEs are going to become one. Let's see how, when, and at what cost (hopefully the new hybrid is a good DE too).
Enlightenment is fine too (light and very customizable... too much for my daily taste).
MATE and Cinnamon are Gnome re-tunned, and I don't see them as that beautiful and stable as sold. I rather stay with XFCE for that matter (menu, bar, lightness... and a full story behind).

There is room for everybody to experiment. But the distro can be maintained only if the folks at the core of the team keep focusing as up to date (according to their own speach). If one day more handy and experienced people joins them, they can do other things.

Cheers!

Don't be a pirate, nor a slave. Use GNU/Linux!
GNU/Linux user 451206
SolydXK, GALPon MiniNo, PCLinuxOS, Xubuntu



Deleted User 2763

Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 06 Jan 2014 01:08

To throw this in the mix... I really like Gala (like in PearOS and ElementaryOS). I don't think it would be wise to add the elementaryOS ppas, but I might try building Gala from the sources...
-Hinto

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 06 Jan 2014 17:17

I tried some DE's on Solyd and let me make some brief comments:
KDE: Works right as it was expected to be. Some very minor bugs but they are less than at many other distros. SolydK team seems to be making kde more stable on this distro than it would be if just installed and left alone at other distro.
XFCE: Also works right as a full but lightweight desktop. SolydX really made it fit to the distro.
Mate: It promises to keep gnome 2 code going while up to date with new libraries and technologies. Probably that's the problem. It has acquired new bugs that were not present in gnome 2 and complicated some old functionalities.
Gnome 3: It seems that developpers looked ahead to touch screen devices and made it look like one of those. Perhaps a flaw! Mose's right button functionality is very limited. For those who use a desktop with a mouse it reuires much more clicking and mouse moving and searching for options. (Examples: Click once to open activities menu, go to the bottom to open the icons of all installed applications and looking for what you want among a big mess. No maximize and minimize buttons and task manager on the panel by default.) After all what should be easy to use became more complicated.
Enlightenment: Promises to be beautiful, configurable and lightweight. The default installtion is ugly and with very few resources. We may spend much, much time until we find out how to configure it as lovers of it say they do.
LXDE and Razor-qt I tried not on SolyXK but had tried on other distros. They are really lightweight but lack beauty and options.

That was enough for me to stop trying and to keep using what has worked for me until now.
Linux is a good environment to study and research but the most known alternatives are known because they have proved to work over time.

jeffreyC
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby jeffreyC » 12 Jan 2014 08:05

fleabus wrote:
rokytnji wrote:See. Headaches can occur when spicing up a install because one thing can effect another.
I always run one desktop/wm per install myself. If I tried to use multiple in the same install I'd get confused and forget what I was running, and probobly run something that would bring it crashing down, or cause problems, and then have trouble figuring out what messed with what.

-- Dave
In my own experience having a second DE or WM is a very good idea, I had a broken theme in Xfce that crashed X, fortunately I also had Fluxbox so I was able to use the computer to fix itself.

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 12 Jan 2014 17:43

jeffreyC wrote:
fleabus wrote:
rokytnji wrote:See. Headaches can occur when spicing up a install because one thing can effect another.
I always run one desktop/wm per install myself. If I tried to use multiple in the same install I'd get confused and forget what I was running, and probobly run something that would bring it crashing down, or cause problems, and then have trouble figuring out what messed with what.

-- Dave
In my own experience having a second DE or WM is a very good idea, I had a broken theme in Xfce that crashed X, fortunately I also had Fluxbox so I was able to use the computer to fix itself.
You make a very good point there Jeff. Fluxbox is a very light wm and stays out of the way. I suppose my statement there was a bit of overkill.

Now that I think more on this, I suppose what I really meant was that I shy away from having more than one full-blown DE in a single install, like KDE and Gnome togetner, or KDE with Cinnamon or Mate, something like that. You're right, having something else about in the vein of a light wm could be very useful while staying out of the way and not causing a lot of crossups/dep hell with your main DE. Definitely a very good idea for a "lifeboat" :D

I think Fernando and roky are right about their experiences with multiple full-blown DEs in a single install. I tried it only once, and being kinda lazy I find it not to my taste to clean up that particular battlefield... :?

-- Dave

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 13 Jan 2014 18:03

jeffreyC wrote:
fleabus wrote:
rokytnji wrote: -- Dave
In my own experience having a second DE or WM is a very good idea, I had a broken theme in Xfce that crashed X, fortunately I also had Fluxbox so I was able to use the computer to fix itself.
I think that's really a good idea. I have to be honest and recognize that I never tried fluxbox. I have found that in SolydXK X and K really work better because they are tuned to work in this distro.
I rarely use xfce but I prefer to keep it there for an eventual need or at least as a second choice. KDE has worked for me but I also think it's wise to have a second option.
Sometimes even for small things it's interesting. For example, I was able to use xfce to have a more complete list of what is launched at login time and make some changes that affected both xfce and kde.
When having a severe damage like breaking graphics system or some part of the system itself I find it better to restore one of my backups.
http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2284
But for a quick fix on something simpler a second DE is ideal.


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