Why not going beyond X and K?

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 13 Dec 2013 23:30

hushpuppy wrote:Bad Dave for editing his post :lol:
fleabus wrote: :mrgreen: :twisted: :lol: <takes bows to thundering applause from his many students> :lol: :twisted: :mrgreen:
The sound of one hand clapping is indeed loud to those who can truly hear!
Sorry, didn't realize you had caught that! :lol:

We must have posted pretty close together... Fixed. I rather enjoyed that line! :twisted: :mrgreen:
hushpuppy wrote: Anyway, for youngsters who really want to grok: The Tao of Programming.
This sounds interesting, I'll check it out.... :)

-- Dave

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zerozero
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby zerozero » 13 Dec 2013 23:41

hushpuppy wrote:There's a post somewhere that explains how to use ar to unpack a .deb and modify debian/control and repack it. If someone has a link?
something like this?
bliss of ignorance

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 14 Dec 2013 00:24

@Z
Yeah, that packaging HowTo, that's a really good one. Another thing I've been wanting to try. I'm going to find some gotta-have soon that I like enough to build my own deb....

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hushpuppy
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby hushpuppy » 14 Dec 2013 00:59

zerozero wrote:
hushpuppy wrote:There's a post somewhere that explains how to use ar to unpack a .deb and modify debian/control and repack it. If someone has a link?
something like this?
Nope. I think it was one of Schoelje's where something had to be fixed and he used ar to unpack a deb, explaining what ar does, and what he changed and why, and how to pack it back.

Thinking about it a bit more, it took me a while to remember how to unpack a deb :oops: file *.deb just returns "Debian binary package (format 2.0)", so I just tried gunzip, unzip, tar with various options, until I remembered ar :roll:

I haven't read most of the links in your HOWTO thread, only the ones necessary to create a deb. The tutorials show how to use dh_make and dpkg-buildpackage, without exploring the internal structure of the deb itself:

Code: Select all

# ar t taskbar_2.4.10-1_i386.deb
debian-binary
control.tar.gz
data.tar.gz
So, for me, the easiest way to fix a control file would be something like

Code: Select all

 ar x [filename].deb ; tar zxf control.tar.gz ; vi debian/control ; tar --remove zcf control.tar.gz debian ; ar c [filename].deb
which could probably be automated by replacing vi with a sed or awk one-liner.

And, just now, I've realized something that should have been obvious:

Code: Select all

# man deb[tab][tab]
deb                     deb-shlibs              deb-systemd-invoke      debconf-communicate     debconf-updatepo
deb-control             deb-split               deb-triggers            debconf-copydb          debhelper
deb-extra-override      deb-src-control         deb-version             debconf-escape          deborphan
deb-old                 deb-substvars           deb3                    debconf-gettextize      debugedit
deb-origin              deb-symbols             debconf                 debconf-set-selections  debugfs
deb-override            deb-systemd-helper      debconf-apt-progress    debconf-show         
Just for once, there are actually man pages for everything, so the need for a link is now unnecessary :roll: Anyway, I'll leave all this here on the off-chance it might help someone. Perhaps you might consider noting the existence of these man pages in your packaging howto (or move this reply to the thread, since it's more relevant there) for those of us who can't always see the obvious?
Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum (Without music, life would be a mistake) - Friedrich Nietzsche

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hushpuppy
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby hushpuppy » 14 Dec 2013 01:15

fleabus wrote:@Z
Yeah, that packaging HowTo, that's a really good one. Another thing I've been wanting to try. I'm going to find some gotta-have soon that I like enough to build my own deb....
If you can wait, and if it helps, this weekend I'm planning to write up a howto for installing Qt apps such as qterminal, using zerozero's howto as a starting point. Basically, the plan is a very detailed howto: install razor > install all the tools required > setting things up > get the sources > dh_make > dpkg-buildpackage > dpkg -i *.deb ;)

So far, I've got everything built and installed, but not very well tested.

No doubt I'll make some mistakes, but the approach should be re-usable for other projects, and any feedback, suggestions, improvements, will hopefully help make the result more robust. zerozero suggests using a vm, which i know absolutely nothing about, so hopefully I'll learn more in the process, too.

Or, if you go for something different, perhaps we could compare our methods?
Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum (Without music, life would be a mistake) - Friedrich Nietzsche

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timber
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby timber » 14 Dec 2013 04:13

fernandoamartin wrote:I really appreciated the humble beginning solydxk developers gave to it recognizing the influence of LMDE and saying they won't forget the origins. However different distros foten end-up acquiring relevant differences. So I would like to give a suggestion to developers, who happily, seem to be very active in the forums.
Now that SolydXK is growing why not making it a multiple desktop distro instead of only a KDe and XFCE distro?
There is support for many desktop environments in the repo's. For example, while Mint seems to be stopping supporting Gnome, Solyd has it fully in the repos. So we could have a SolydG too. And in the repos we find Enlightenment, Fluxbox and others.
If the team would like to do it Solyd could even be synchronized with repos containing Mate and Cinnamon. Even though LMDE already has those two last desktops on it we would not end up with the same product since Solyd has a more organized cycle of monthly updates.
For example, I myself am currently using SolydK with XFCE on it also. One for configurability and beauty and other for speed and lightness.
What do you think about the idea of extending support for other environments? ;)
I think this best explains why SolydXK does not move beyond the KDE and Xfce desktops:
http://forums.solydxk.com/viewtopic.php ... =601#p6429
I'm all in, for sticking with these principals.(i.e. 100%)
As Fleabus said (very well, I might add)
I think that if they had any extra time at all it would probably be spent bettering what they have instead of trying to spread themselves too thin.
I agree.

With that said, I think no one here at the SolydXK forums has ever discouraged community projects or individual attempts to create whatever a user wants to create, using SolydXK as a starting point.
If you have a dream, a goal of creating I do believe you will get plenty of support in your efforts.
I'm interested in seeing any developments that improve or give users options.
I've never tried QT Razor DE but your thread had peaked my curiosity, I'll have to check it out.
timber

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fleabus
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fleabus » 14 Dec 2013 08:59

hushpuppy wrote:If you can wait, and if it helps, this weekend I'm planning to write up a howto for installing Qt apps such as qterminal, using zerozero's howto as a starting point.
I'm always happy to read and to follow along and try anything I can because I need all the Linux learning excercises I can lay my hands on.

I worked in support in an MS shop all my life, got into the whole IT thingy back in the late '80s and It's been my favorite subject/hobby/job ever since then. Due to time considerations I only ever dabbled in Linux in the early 2Ks, but it's always been there; I've always been aware and intrigued by it. Now that I'm retired It's recently become the full time focus. Only five months experience so far.

What I'm getting at here is that I often think of what an incredible amount of knowledge can just "soak in" by osmosis in all that time. I'm not used to anything being non-intuitive. When I'm on the other side, everything just goes by, bang, bang, bang -- because of the familiarity. One just doesn't realize how much familiarity affects things! I'm not used to blundering around in something, rather I'm used to knowing exactly what to do an any given situation.

So now I've adopted Linux, and all that's gone! :) Never was any concept driven home harder than that of familiarity=user-friendly=intuitive! My goal here is for Linux to eventually become closer to second nature, as the other side did after all those years -- not that one is ever "finished learning" any branch of any field or subject. I know it's gonna take a long time, but hopefully it doesn't have to be as long, because of all the general knowledge one soaks up during all that time.

One "general knowledge" example. When you mentioned in an earlier post "vi > emacs", even though I had never used either one, my reaction went like this: :roll: "Really? That again? Still? After all these years? He's gotta be kidding. Man, these folks are dedicated!" Although I had never used either one, I had been aware of the controversy since back in the dim past... Read thru many a usenet flame-war I did.

Edit: Come to think of it, there was some vi/emacs experience on VMS back in the early 90s. I had long ago forgotten! Most of those memories have to do with soldering com ports onto broken vt-220s and making serial cables. As I think more on this, I believe I did prefer vi, something about the emacs interface, if memory serves (??). What we seem to have now is vim. I wonder if its advent also sparked a war amongst the hard-core vi folks...

I will follow along with you and the many other Linux old-timers in this and other fora and learn as much as I can soak up. Another thing I've learned in all these years is that it's often not something you can force, even with all the motivation in the world. Sometimes it just requires time and close proximity. Sometimes you just have to take a break, sit back and... I don't know. Let it integrate, or settle. I have a tendency to push it too hard, and end up going off half cocked without taking enough time to think about it and let things gel. But at least I have fun! The best part is, hey, it ain't a Job any more! That part can really ruin a thing sometimes. :lol:

-- Dave

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 14 Dec 2013 13:19

Yesterday I walked one more step toward another desktops.
I installed and ran Mate from its own repo.
In netbook I had the already know bug "starting caja" hundreds of times. In PC everything ran fine except that caja sometimes crashed. So caja seems to be the only problem on mate by now. I have to recognize that currently xfce is easier to config than mate. And I have to recognize that kde is still my favorite because no other has such a good interaction between different apps and so many options to config.

Now if someone can give me a hint I would like to play with gnome a little bit. But how can I keep track of all the packages gnomes installs on my system (an amount of 229MB if I install)? I'd like to know it because gnome would increase the size of my updates enormously. Should I put its packages "on hold" to avoid it? If I do is ther the risk of holding some package that is dependence of another software? And if later I uninstall gnome will it leave much garbage behind?

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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby zerozero » 15 Dec 2013 03:03

rokytnji wrote:http://s751.photobucket.com/user/rokytn ... 0.mp4.html

Just a real short video I made showing how caja file manager takes over in Fluxbox and ruins right click fluxbox menu functions.
It takes xkill to restore fluxbox back to normal. Closing caja aint gonna cut the mustard. If I want a Mate/Fluxbox,
SolydMF. It is gonna take some hand massaging beyond my skillset, and, I am not too bad at troubleshooting and customizing anything I set my mind on to do. So sticking with a base install and building up from there with only one
DE or WM at a time seems the best way to go IMHO.

See. Headaches can occur when spicing up a install because one thing can effect another.
Good luck with the "nike saying" because I still say it takes some skill to walk the walk.
That is why I am careful when I talk the talk.

This stuff I did as just a study to see what would happen. I am not going to build no spinoff.
i just saw this now :P
same as nautilus (caja was/is a nautilus2.xx fork) caja likes to manage the desktop.
i believe that you can dig a "show desktop" entry in dconf and turn it to false (if you want to use caja with Flux)
bliss of ignorance

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 15 Dec 2013 14:16

Unhappily I restored the backup of my system to the moment before installing mate.
Strangely I have nautilus in both of my installations because it recognizes mtp on my cell phone better than dolphin and never had any problem with nautilus. But looking at dconf I really saw that caja is not only a file manager but a desktop manager of mate.
I feel that mate is more pretty than xfce and seems to work smoother. But with few improvements over time and its complications to config via dconf xfce, although uglier, is becoming easier to use. :(

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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby zebedeeboss » 15 Dec 2013 14:30

Linux... it can be what you want it to be.

For me, I am pleased they are not getting distracted with other desktop flavours. I believe it's what makes it work "out of the box". They have concentrated on getting it right, no distractions. I truly hope they keep it this way.

Zeb
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SolydXK all the way - Linux User #565092

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 15 Dec 2013 17:22

zebedeeboss wrote:For me, I am pleased they are not getting distracted with other desktop flavours. I believe it's what makes it work "out of the box". They have concentrated on getting it right, no distractions. Zeb
Yeah. It's a reasonable view too. I have noticed that some of the biggest distros such as ubuntu, mint and others concentrated on only 1 or 2 desktops and provide some more 1, 2 or 3 extra ones in repos or iso's. So solydxk has chances to grow this way.
Maybe having some other DE's on repos (or if some unofficial spins appear) will be enough for those with different taste or those satisfied who want to study a little more like me.

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zerozero
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby zerozero » 16 Dec 2013 00:13

fernandoamartin wrote:Maybe having some other DE's on repos (or if some unofficial spins appear) will be enough for those with different taste or those satisfied who want to study a little more like me.
which DE's are you missing?
- Mate was recently admitted in debian, should be an apt away from you very very soon;
- cinnamon is in debian but until the gnome transition to 3.10 (or 3.12) is over it might be out of testing (or cinnamon 2.0 finally enters debian);
- for reasons we don't need to explain unity will never be part of debian;

am i forgetting any other big DE?
bliss of ignorance

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 16 Dec 2013 14:28

Now I'm not missing DE's. I found that they are there. But as users and developers of solydxk say this distro concentrates on making these two working better. We may try others for study or for pleasure as I did but k and x always work better here.

J.Jay
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby J.Jay » 18 Dec 2013 00:53

same as nautilus (caja was/is a nautilus2.xx fork) caja likes to manage the desktop.
i believe that you can dig a "show desktop" entry in dconf and turn it to false (if you want to use caja with Flux)
Can do that also for Xfce.
Xfce4 developers are/have stated thunar (I presume) is taking over mor functions of managing the desktop. :o

Have installed mate ZZero's way http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php? ... 986#p18936 if you don't like caja (I have less problems than before, lately (version?)) and install thunar (from repos with no recomends), and tell prefered apps to use, desktop will still use 'caja' but the places (in 3 part start menu) will use thunar. ;)

I also use only a top mate panel with a start/reboot, login (these Xfce plugin won't work, need mate ones), control panel (launcher) menu (3 part one, and a drawer for favorites. This way get bonus of using 'Mozo' (mate menu editor). I acully then also use a 'xfce4-panel' on bottom (formats better exspecilly if multiple monitors or resolutions(like laptop with dock using larger screen)). Most Xfce4 panel plugins still work (not all) notably the tray and alsa mixer work. (may need seperate install for plugin) :P

And the best thing (mate a little lower to begin) my memory and cpu usage is just a little more the a 'pure Xfce' :o

J.Jay

Edit almost forgot :oops: my top (mate) panel also has a 'osmo' (launcher) and a clock.

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kobros
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby kobros » 21 Dec 2013 11:15

"Why not going beyond X and K?"

Because doing so would dilute the SolydXK brand image.
Only actions that will positively reinforce the brand image should be considered.

Several other arguments have already been stated. I won't repeat all of them here.
But avoiding an overload on an ambitious, but small dev. team is the main one (imho).
Linux User #312596.
Mepis/Debian/antiX/MX/Win7

J.Jay
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby J.Jay » 22 Dec 2013 20:46

as a side note :D
Have installed mate ZZero's way http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php? ... 986#p18936 if you don't like caja (I have less problems than before, lately (version?)) and install thunar (from repos with no recomends), and tell prefered apps to use, desktop will still use 'caja' but the places (in 3 part start menu) will use thunar. ;)
I also (to lessen caja use/eratic behavior :P ) in dconf turn of showing icons for home, computer and trash (they'll use caja) on desktop and make custom launchers (using thunar) for those. ;)

J.Jay

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 23 Dec 2013 01:40

Had I known this earlier! I never used icons on my desktop so this is what I do in all desktops. But before I could do this on mate it would launch caja several times. Maybe I'll try again.

J.Jay
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby J.Jay » 27 Dec 2013 00:59

Had I known this earlier! I never used icons on my desktop so this is what I do in all desktops. But before I could do this on mate it would launch caja several times. Maybe I'll try again.
Somewhere in dconf (memory foggy/old) :? You can set 'required components' (mate session settings or such :? ) and deleate caja. I did but I don't think can change to something else ( :?: ). The wallpaper and desktop turns blank, but then you may be able to use 'feh' (that the one openbox uses for dektop is it not?).

Happy experimenting (boom, boom crash :P )
J.Jay

fernandoamartin
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Re: Why not going beyond X and K?

Postby fernandoamartin » 27 Dec 2013 13:51

J.Jay wrote:
Happy experimenting (boom, boom crash :P )
J.Jay
:lol: :lol: :lol: I liked that.
Boom, boom, crash was exactly what I got with Mate. :P
I was able to define thunar as file manager and stop caja from launching and even so have wallpaper and icons. So I found that qt apps in mate appeared without minimize, maximize and close buttons. And found that in a netbook many gtk windows that were meant to configure it could not be resized and some options were simply out of view.
This mess that an unofficial desktop can create discouraged me of even trying Gnome 3 that is in the official repo's. Maybe someday on a leisure time I do it.

So now let me answer my own question:
Why not going beyond X and K?
Because they are the only ones who really work right!


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