SolydXK Update Packs explained

Important informations about SolydXK including releases notes, forum rules and other anouncements
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vtpoet
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby vtpoet » 26 Nov 2013 16:51

Okay. Glad I asked (before jumping). : )
Linux Reap what you tweak.

Fargo
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby Fargo » 02 Dec 2013 20:37

I've been busy lately and haven't had much time to help with Solyd lately, but I did want to make one suggestion for future Update Pack info pages.

I think the section regarding issues and work arounds needs to be more clearly seperated from the updating via terminal section. For example lets view the 2012.12.06 UP. As someone who uses the Update Manager I quit reading after the line that says "It is that easy". After that line the instructions go on to describe how to install via terminal. So why would someone using Update Manager keep reading. I personally missed the whole section about Post upgrade for Nvidia drivers. So I suggest that in the future any additional procedures that may need to be used by someone even if they are using the update Manager needs to be explained better.

Currently the page looks something like this:
Update with the Update Manager

The Update Manager can be opened from the system tray by clicking on the shield icon . Click the "Refresh" button to refresh the list of packages that can be updated. Click on the "Install Update" button, to update your system, and follow any additional on screen directions.
It is that easy!
Issues and workarounds

We recommend using the Update Manager to update your system, but if you prefer using the terminal, please read the below steps carefully.

Pre upgrade
SolydK
Replace system-config-printer-kde (not maintained anymore) with print-manager
sudo apt-get purge system-config-printer-kde; sudo apt-get install print-manager

Now you can run dist-upgrade.

Post upgrade
After the dist-upgrade finishes, and you're using Nvidia, you run the following command before reboot:
sudo apt-get install --reinstall nvidia-kernel-dkms
I think in the future it may be better to lay out the update info page as follows:
Update with the Update Manager

The Update Manager can be opened from the system tray by clicking on the shield icon . Click the "Refresh" button to refresh the list of packages that can be updated. Click on the "Install Update" button, to update your system, and follow any additional on screen directions.
It is that easy!

Please note: In some cases, additional changes may be required. Please see the Issues and workaround section below to be aware of any additional maintenance that your system may require

Issues and Workarounds


ATTENTION Nvidia users.

Post upgrade
After the upgrade finishes, and you're using Nvidia, run the following command before reboot:
sudo apt-get install --reinstall nvidia-kernel-dkms

Updating via Terminal

We recommend using the Update Manager to update your system, but if you prefer using the terminal, please read the below steps carefully. Also be aware that any Issues and workarounds listing above also apply to terminal users.

Pre upgrade
SolydK
Replace system-config-printer-kde (not maintained anymore) with print-manager
sudo apt-get purge system-config-printer-kde; sudo apt-get install print-manager

Now you can run dist-upgrade.
I hope you can see the difference between the two and what I am trying to say. I just want to make it obvious for anyone using the Update Manager that there might be times they need to perform additional maintenance. If that information is buried in the terminal section it is not seen.

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fleabus
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby fleabus » 02 Dec 2013 21:03

Or have it right at the top:
Fargo wrote:In some cases, additional changes may be required. Please see the Issues and workaround section below to be aware of any additional maintenance that your system may require.
Or...
Whether you choose to upgrade via the Update Manager (Recommended) or via the terminal Please note the following issues and workarounds:

Anyway, something like that. I regret to say I've missed a couple of things in the past by being in too much of a hurry. :oops:

My own fault of course, but I bet I'm not alone, and that others out there may also benefit from a loud alarm and a huge steam train whistle... Maybe a fog horn? Red and blue flashing lights and siren? ... Never mind. :lol: :mrgreen:

I also realize that there may be "issues and workarounds" that are specific to either the terminal scenario, or to the UM scenario.

Fargo
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby Fargo » 02 Dec 2013 21:07

^^^Right on top might be even better^^^ I like it.

I wonder if a note could also be made on the update tab to direct users to check the info page prior to updating. Just to make sure everyone sees the notice.

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fleabus
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby fleabus » 02 Dec 2013 21:15

Yup, that sounds good too.

Anyway, just thinking out loud...

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Arjen Balfoort
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 02 Dec 2013 21:27

Gentlemen,

Could one of you adapt the current info page?
You need to know some html, though.

Here's the page: http://debian.solydxk.nl/testing/update-pack.html

And when you're done, you can mail it to me: schoelje@solydxk.nl


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ScottQuier
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby ScottQuier » 02 Dec 2013 21:53

@fargo, @fleabus,

Unless I'm grossly mis-reading the page referenced by Schoelje, those who are using the Update Manager can safely stop reading after the "It is that easy!"

The Issues and Workarounds are for those who choose to dist-upgrade via the terminal. The intro even says
We recommend using the Update Manager to update your system, but if you prefer using the terminal, please read the below steps carefully.
And, for the "Post Upgrade"
After the dist-upgrade finishes, and you're using Nvidia ....
There's even a section, before the "Update Manager" section that ...
Read this whether you update with the Update Manager, or terminal.
where in there is discussion about keeping/replacing config files and reselecting a theme.

I think it's covered.

All that having been said, I think it might be good to have two sections:
  • Update with the Update Manager
  • Update with the terminal
OK, I sent in my proposal - that was fun!
Scott
Quoting zerozero, "The usage of PPA's in debian-based
systems is risky at best and entails serious compatibility
problems; usually it's the best way to destroy an install"

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fleabus
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby fleabus » 02 Dec 2013 22:49

@Scott -

You're absolutely right, I really need to stop going off half-cocked, slow down, and take a more thoughtful approach to things here. Of course I wouldn't mind adapting the page. If it needed it. (@Schoelje, If you'd like it done anyway, well that's another matter entirely; be happy to. :) )

My post above was made in haste; I should have gone back and re-familiarized myself with the page in question. Apparently Scott had to do that for me. :oops:

Wow. Thinking back on the sheer untold quantity of times I've told someone "Read Your Screen! It's Right There In Front Of You!"

The page is perfectly clear to me. My most abject apologies for the tempest in the teapot.
ScottQuier wrote:@fargo, @fleabus,

Unless I'm grossly mis-reading the page referenced by Schoelje, those who are using the Update Manager can safely stop reading after the "It is that easy!"

The Issues and Workarounds are for those who choose to dist-upgrade via the terminal. The intro even says
We recommend using the Update Manager to update your system, but if you prefer using the terminal, please read the below steps carefully.
And, for the "Post Upgrade"
After the dist-upgrade finishes, and you're using Nvidia ....
There's even a section, before the "Update Manager" section that ...
Read this whether you update with the Update Manager, or terminal.
where in there is discussion about keeping/replacing config files and reselecting a theme.

I think it's covered.

All that having been said, I think it might be good to have two sections:
  • Update with the Update Manager
  • Update with the terminal
OK, I sent in my proposal - that was fun!

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zerozero
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby zerozero » 02 Dec 2013 23:17

let me say something here :)

we need (want) you to question (and preferably suggest viable options :P ) in (al)everything :lol: we do!
(we won't implement all the suggestions but we'll listen to all of them and consider what is best for the project)

we are our worst critics and without constructive criticism we won't improve.

one anecdote: a fw days ago in a YT video review the reviewer couldn't find the d/l links for the newly released BE (in this page http://solydxk.nl/solydk-business-editi ... -new-isos/)
what is obvious to us, is not to everyone else (and now looking at the page we could have done a better job highlighting what is really the news there: the new isos and the download links)

do we have to make everything fisher-price-like? :shock: no! but ...

in this particular situation all critical input is valid input;
UM is a key component in the system and clear information is paramount.
bliss of ignorance

Fargo
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby Fargo » 02 Dec 2013 23:17

OK I read the page again. I see where it does say to read whether you update via Update Manager or Terminal. However, nowhere in that section does it mention the Nvidia issue. The nVidia issue is only mentioned in the directions for terminal users.

"Update information

Read this whether you update with the Update Manager, or terminal.

SolydX and SolydK
Grub-pc is updated. You need to keep the configuration file, and select the device where you installed grub. Usually you can keep the first entry: /dev/sda
SolydX
If you replace the LightDM configuration files, don't forget to run LightDM Manager before reboot to set your preferences.
SolydX
To integrate the new Sambashare into Thunar, open the "Custom Actions" dialog in Thunar: edit > configure custom actions, and remove all but one of the Samba actions. Edit the remaining one, and replace the command with:
sambashare %f %n

You can also edit ~/.config/Thunar/uca.xml manually.
"



Having looked at it again, I still think more clarity is needed. Whether that is done by breaking it into 2 separate sections for Update Manager and Terminal Updates or whether it is just a big Notice at the top of the page is fine. Or even putting it in the section where it says to read regardless of update method would be better. But as it is now, it is only seen by those who update via terminal. Most likely I will read these pages more carefully in the future. But I have concern for newer users who may not read the whole page. So I propose that any such requirements are noted further up on the page where Update Manager users will be sure to see them.

I would make the changes for Schoelje but I don't know how to do that.

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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby fleabus » 02 Dec 2013 23:44

zerozero wrote:let me say something here :) ...

...in this particular situation all critical input is valid input;
UM is a key component in the system and clear information is paramount.
Thanks for that zz, reassuring! :)

It was another of those smack-in-the-head-with-a-two-by-four moments, I was frustrated with myself for not having reread the 12-6 UP page again before opening mouth... :lol:

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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 03 Dec 2013 10:14

I've uploaded ScottQuier's new info page to testing.
See the OP here: http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2182


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ScottQuier
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby ScottQuier » 03 Dec 2013 11:43

Schoelje wrote:I've uploaded ScottQuier's new info page to testing.
See the OP here: http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2182
And it looks like you didn't make any changes to my proposal!

OK, folks, time to pile on and make my suggestion better!
Scott
Quoting zerozero, "The usage of PPA's in debian-based
systems is risky at best and entails serious compatibility
problems; usually it's the best way to destroy an install"

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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby zerozero » 03 Dec 2013 11:50

since we are at it :lol: could this http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=152#p20316 be also solved?
the reference to the keyring is deprecated.
bliss of ignorance

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fleabus
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby fleabus » 03 Dec 2013 12:08

@zz
Well now, I would fink so, that one's well caught-up, they all come with up-to-date sources & keyring at no extra charge... :D
ScottQuier wrote:I think it might be good to have two sections:
  • Update with the Update Manager
  • Update with the terminal
@Scott,
I've thought for a while now that it ought to be split more cleanly into two sections, and that you have done!

I think the new one looks good as is.

-- Dave

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Arjen Balfoort
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 03 Dec 2013 12:10

Removed the keyring reference from the info page.


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Fargo
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby Fargo » 03 Dec 2013 15:34

Schoelje wrote:I've uploaded ScottQuier's new info page to testing.
See the OP here: http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2182
OK, I still find it confusing. If I am using Update Manager, will I need to run the command to reinstall nVidia? I assume not since its only located in the Terminal section. (But then again, thats where it was last time too and I was supposed to run it.) If people using the Update Manager need to reinstall nVidia it MUST be noted in the Update Manager section or in the update information section that applies to both UM users and Terminal users. As it its right now, as an Update Manager user, I would not run the code to reinstall nVidia. Because its only located in the section for Terminal users.

Also what about the information to pre-upgrade SolydK in the terminal section? Does that need to be run before running Update Manager? Again, I assume it also is only for Terminal users. If any of these codes need to be run by the user using Update Manager they must be moved outside of the Terminal install instructions and into the instructions for Update Manager users. Its too confusing for the UM user to also have to use some code from the Terminal updates unless it is explicitly stated.

Please don't take this as negative criticism. I love having Home Edition for home and BE for my work machine. But if the update instructions for using the Update Manager are not complete, I and others will always have update issues. That means people will leave Solyd because updates always fail. So if there is ever any code that needs to be run from terminal for someone using the Update Manager, there needs to be step by step instructions on how to run that code. I mean we need to hold hands here. Give instructions to open a terminal and copy paste the code into it so people know how to do it and will be comfortable. Remember, the people we want to get using Solyd still come mostly from Windows. They do not understand a thing about command line or pre-upgrade/post-upgrade instructions. They are used to just clicking a button. We need to strive to make it that easy. In fact, if possible, it would be awesome to see those pre-upgrade and post upgrade scrips added to a button that would have to be pressed before doing the upgrade and before restarting the system. But until thats possible, anything that needs to be run in terminal must be included in the instructions for people using the Update Manager. Telling them to read the instructions for Terminal users is not sufficient if they are not terminal users. Each section should be fully inclusive of all instructions needed to perform an update using that method. Lets not mix the two together.

Side note: (Putting on flame suit) Personally I would like to see the instructions for terminal users dissappear from the update info page. It seems to me those who want to update via terminal are more advanced linux users who already know what they are doing. Lets keep the update instruction page clean and simple for the Windows user coming to Linux. You can give a link to the forum for the advanced user who wants to do it manually. Or make a seperate tab for advanced users.

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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby fleabus » 04 Dec 2013 00:15

Fargo wrote:Personally I would like to see the instructions for terminal users dissappear from the update info page.... You can give a link to the forum for the advanced user who wants to do it manually.
Or not. After all, if they're sitting there looking at an UP info page in UM, they're not terminal users, Right?

In the forum topic for each UP:
"Those who wish to update via the terminal please follow these instructions".

Leaving terminal upgraders to the forum topic allows total development focus on "the UM process for UM users".

I have the impression that UM is always updated for each UP. I don't know if it's possible for for the backend scripts to totally automate the process each time so that no terminal usage by UM users is necessary. That's Schoelje's bailiwick; I have no idea what's involved or whether it's even workable.

Why have a "pre-upgrade" button? Why not script the whole UP behind UM and make the process invisible, just have a big ol' GO button? Well, there are so many different setups out there, on so many different kinds of hardware. No idea if such a thing is possible.

I would love to hear what everyone else thinks. Personally, although I'm new to Linux I prefer to do these UPs through the terminal. I'd be fine with UP-specific pointers in the forum topic each time. That's just me though. I'm trying to learn this stuff, and I'm a hopeless tinkerer. :mrgreen: :D

Just thinkin' out loud here...

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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby ScottQuier » 04 Dec 2013 01:12

@Fargo,

I think I've figured out what's troubing you with the page referenced by Schoelje ....
Schoelje wrote:I've uploaded ScottQuier's new info page to testing.
See the OP here: http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2182
This page is intended for TESTERS, not the "normal" users.

Normal users will not need to update their sources.list - those are directions for the testers to be sure they are pointed at the TESTING repos so they can test the proposed UP before it goes public.

Normal users in the forum will see something like the first post in this thread --> http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1991

Users who just update via the UM and never visit the forum will see something like this (http://debian.solydxk.nl/testing/update-pack.html) in the UM.

Does this additional information help quiet your concerns? If not, then I've missed the point again :) (yes, I'm quite used to that feeling).
Scott
Quoting zerozero, "The usage of PPA's in debian-based
systems is risky at best and entails serious compatibility
problems; usually it's the best way to destroy an install"

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zerozero
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Re: SolydXK Update Packs explained

Postby zerozero » 04 Dec 2013 01:28

if i'm not mistaken Fargo's concerns come from the not-so-good-experience :lol: (to put it mild) he had in the last UP with nvidia

even though he used the UM, nvidia broke on him (as it broke on others);
the situation was exceptional back then as was explained;

regarding the questions raised here: our UM performs pre and post-upgrade scripts: if an issue is detected during the testing period and can be scripted all the UM users have to do is click away :lol: (sometimes (due to issues we all know as well: testing period, hardware used but specially the number of testers << we have an amazing test squad; kudos to you!! but we need more>>) some issues slip through (that was happened that time)
bliss of ignorance


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