UP communication complaints.

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sjmur
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby sjmur » 09 Nov 2013 20:13

I'm actually okay with the monthly set up. I think for the end user sake they should be named [Month][Year]. So UP November13, December13, January14 and so on.

The frequent updating and fixing is what attracted me to Solyd over other Distro's. Such as LMDE which takes far to long to update and is seemingly now random with it's UP releases. If it is kept to a middle of the month release as mentioned above and a roadmap for each UP released and abided to (so none of this, new package for XXX, we gotta postpone for a day or two to test) then I think we have a social communication and public release set up for the end user. Keep it going and incremental. Dont want to have huge UP packs every 90 days.
//Mozilla Rep, Web Developer, Open Source supporter, Community Manager, Irish//

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Zill
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby Zill » 09 Nov 2013 20:23

pnlarsson wrote:...Having 90 days between would need some updates during that time - firefox / thunderbird comes to my mind.
I really like SolydXK for the updates (refuge from LMDE) and 90 days without any is a very long time - how about security releases?..
I think we should keep this in perspective. With an update cycle of 90 days I doubt that any Solyd user will experience any security dropoff that would be prevented by a more up-to-date package. I suggest that this applies to all packages, including the kernel and firefox/thunderbird.

Linux systems are inherently secure by design and, unless a system is running internet services with open ports, it is very unlikely that any recently discovered vulnerability will be exploited on a "normal" system.

Updating everything on a (almost) continuous basis is not really necessary IMHO and can cause unnecessary breakage. This is why the Solyd UP model is so good. It ensures that a system is always relatively up-to-date without actually being "bleeding edge".

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escolar
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby escolar » 09 Nov 2013 20:48

I like the mothly updates and I have no complains about them nor about communications.

Anyway, the UP period (monthly, ever 45, 60 or 90 days...) have to be decided by the developers and testers team, because they know how many time they want to spend in Solydxk and in their-not-Solydxk-lifes.

Thanks to the team

Fargo
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby Fargo » 10 Nov 2013 04:19

escolar wrote:I like the mothly updates and I have no complains about them nor about communications.

Anyway, the UP period (monthly, ever 45, 60 or 90 days...) have to be decided by the developers and testers team, because they know how many time they want to spend in Solydxk and in their-not-Solydxk-lifes.

Thanks to the team
I agree 100%.

Additional thoughts:

If a quarterly release is good for the developers I think its a good method. I'm happy to wait a little longer if it gives the developers more time to test and create a more stable system.

For me it actually makes it easier to service and maintain systems for other people as well. Most of the people who I help maintain systems for, I see every 3-4 months. So having a quarterly update means I can help them with their updates in a more timely manner if problems arise. Its also better timing for college students who may not want to risk breaking their system with an update every month, but can schedule time quarterly to update their system. This way they don't have to worry about having update issues just as some big term paper is due.

I do understand the desire for having the latest software updates. Its fun. But if more developer/testing time can make a more stable system, I'd rather wait.

I don't think there will be any security issues by waiting another 60 days to update. As mentioned Linux is very secure. However, if some MAJOR Linux security issue should arise, I'm sure Schoelje and the Solyd team could put together an unscheduled security UP that fixes the issue. But I think this would have to be reserved for a MAJOR security issue the likes of which we have never yet seen in Linux.

Finally, I think a quarterly release schedule would actually give Solyd more exposure. I think places like Distrowatch give more attention to a quarterly release of PCLinuxOS than they do the monthly releases of SolydXK.

So the way I see it, having a quarterly release may have the downside of some older packages, but it also has some upsides. The greatest of which would hopefully be more stability. But I will leave that up to the developers to decide.

I think finding the best compromise between stability and up-to-dateness, is the reason most people are at SolydXK. I think if a longer release schedule can make updates smoother, make development easier, and provide a more stable system, most SolydXK users would prefer to choose that route. But that will be up to Schoelje, zerozero and others to decide if a quarterly cycle can provide these benefits.

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fleabus
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby fleabus » 10 Nov 2013 09:10

Fargo wrote:
escolar wrote:I like the mothly updates and I have no complains about them nor about communications.

Anyway, the UP period (monthly, ever 45, 60 or 90 days...) have to be decided by the developers and testers team, because they know how many time they want to spend in Solydxk and in their-not-Solydxk-lifes.

Thanks to the team
I agree 100%.

Additional thoughts:
<...snip... for brevity...>
I think finding the best compromise between stability and up-to-dateness, is the reason most people are at SolydXK. I think if a longer release schedule can make updates smoother, make development easier, and provide a more stable system, most SolydXK users would prefer to choose that route. But that will be up to Schoelje, zerozero and others to decide if a quarterly cycle can provide these benefits.
^^^ +1 all of the above, me too, what they said, and all that good stuff. Well said, couldn't have said it better.

Edit:
Back in '88 I tried to 'Do it All'. Had a good day job, home, family (kids were ages four and six), and computer support for everybody. Then I got a night job. I lasted four years. By the end of '92 I was exhausted, burned out completely. Toast. Crispy critter. Had to give up the night job or go Totally Batty. I was only 36 years old. So y'all be good to yourselves! I like SolydXK! :mrgreen: :lol:

-- Dave

fkef
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby fkef » 11 Nov 2013 22:14

Just some thoughts from a simple home user.

LMDE is considered a rolling release, but it's "never or rarely" updated, so actually what is the REAL difference between a huge update pack, or a Ubuntu(ish) distribution upgrade every six month (without reinstall, of course)?

As I understand, some of Solydxk target group is smaller companies. So, if a company is interested in the rolling release model, I think they would be interested, because they wants regular updates. How much would they gain from quarterly UP:s, compared to six month upgrades with daily security updates? A company that is not interested in the latest software would stick with a LTS release. (My company went from XP and Office 2003 to Win 7 and Office 2010, early 2013)

I completely understand that the monthly UP:s puts a lot of pressure on the team and some more testing is may be needed, considered some of the issues reported in the forum, (release 15 of the month instead?). I really hope that SolydXK, does not decide to go the quarterly UP releases. The monthly UP:s makes Solydxk "stand out" compared to other Debian based distros. Quartley UP would mean that you only got 1 update between Ubuntu releases instead of 6. (And how fun is that?).

So if you want to take some market share between Ubuntu and LMDE, stick with the monthly updates or anyway 6-8 weeks.

Personally I would be happy to donate some Euros per month to the Solydxk team, instead of paying for a Win 7 licence.

Best Regards

(Sabayon Linux Provides weekly updates)

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Omega
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby Omega » 18 Nov 2013 02:03

Bi-monthly or quarterly releases sounds good to me. Being 2-3 months behind Debian Testing isn't bad. Do what you guys think is more comfortable to maintain.

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iain1940
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby iain1940 » 18 Nov 2013 21:21

Like most of your users I'm happy with whatever you can manage. Maybe every two/three months will be easier to maintain than every month and allow for a bit more testing.

Trying to make a specific day puts a lot of pressure on the small number of maintainers. I'd be happy to look forward to a 'January' UP and not worry whether it came in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th week.
I think finding the best compromise between stability and up-to-dateness, is the reason most people are at SolydXK. I think if a longer release schedule can make updates smoother, make development easier, and provide a more stable system, most SolydXK users would prefer to choose that route. But that will be up to Schoelje, zerozero and others to decide if a quarterly cycle can provide these benefits.
Again +1 - well said

fkef
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby fkef » 10 Feb 2014 22:49

Edit: Just to clarify: This post should NOT be considered negative against SolydXK.

I was just checking in LMDE:s forum and their google+ page. By reading some posts and comments it seems like people having issues to upgrade to UP 8, and that got me thinking. Maybe the time between the UP:s is to long, to be able to maintain a stable and "easy" upgrade process. If I am not mistaken UP 7 was released about 5 months ago.

The Mint team even recommend to do a full backup before upgrading to UP 8 (is the upgrade process not safe enought?). So, why not just backup your data and do a fresh install? In this case the rolling release model kind of losing it purpose. The amount of work to fix a broken upgrade or "reconfigure" a fresh install might be about the same.

I've been using SolydK for almost 4 month now (7 months since I discovered it) and I am really enjoying this distro. My favorite since Fuduntu. However after every upgrade I have been experiencing some smaller issues, not a big deal. So far, easy fixed by the help in the forum. Some examples:

After the Jan UP
1. Some problems during upgrade (See the Jan Prod. thread)
2. Volume randomly increasing to 100%
3. CD:s not automounted correctly
4. I suspect there is some issues with MTP.

Previous UP:s
1. Screensaver starting in when VLC is in fullscreen
2. A few minor stuff that I can not remember at writing moment.

Quate from Update Packs explained
If testing breaks, the testing process is stopped until the next quarterly. This is then communicated to the SolydX and SolydK users stating the reason and a description of the rest of the process.
End Quate

To the point. With the increase to quartely UP:s, is there any risk that SolydXK goes the same way as LMDE. What I mean is, huge update packs, with long waiting time, with plenty "stuff to fix", to get up and running or the risk of breaking the system.

It also seems like LMDE do not have so many users left, maybe because the users interested in a rolling release is not interested to wait 5-7 months for updates, in the beginning of LMDE I think the Up:s where more frquent.

(I was running LMDE for some time in the beginning of 2012 with Gnome 2, but gave up, because it took forever before UP 4 was released). Now it is UP 8, so 4 UP:s in two years.

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Zill
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby Zill » 10 Feb 2014 23:15

fkef wrote:...The Mint team even recommend to do a full backup before upgrading to UP 8 (is the upgrade process not safe enought?)...
I leave others to debate the pros and cons of different periods between update packs. However, I will give the following advice regarding backups...

If your data is important to you then good backups are not optional - they are essential. Disk drives can crash at any time and "finger-trouble" can destroy data instantly. When you add in the hazards of upgrading software it is, IMHO, foolish to even consider this without having a known good set of data backups stored elsewhere. This applies to every OS - Windows, Mac or Linux!

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Orbmiser
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby Orbmiser » 10 Feb 2014 23:55

Zill wrote:
fkef wrote:...The Mint team even recommend to do a full backup before upgrading to UP 8 (is the upgrade process not safe enought?)...
I leave others to debate the pros and cons of different periods between update packs. However, I will give the following advice regarding backups...

If your data is important to you then good backups are not optional - they are essential. Disk drives can crash at any time and "finger-trouble" can destroy data instantly. When you add in the hazards of upgrading software it is, IMHO, foolish to even consider this without having a known good set of data backups stored elsewhere. This applies to every OS - Windows, Mac or Linux!
Yep half my income as a computer field tech was trying to recover user's data. They went On & On how essential and important that data was. I would ask them "If it was so essential then why didn't you back it up?" with silence & ummm's in response.

There is NO REASON what so ever of losing important data Period!

I have multiple backups of Important data. From usb keys that go with me. To multiple external usb drives of mirrored partitions and separate data to Online backups of crucial data.

Using Redo backup which an easier to use Clonezilla can backup my / root & separate /home and Windows partitions in about 15mins and 30mins for all OS partitions. And I do that before any major update.
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ScottQuier
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby ScottQuier » 11 Feb 2014 00:00

fkef wrote: Quate from Update Packs explained
If testing breaks, the testing process is stopped until the next quarterly. This is then communicated to the SolydX and SolydK users stating the reason and a description of the rest of the process.
End Quate

To the point. With the increase to quartely UP:s, is there any risk that SolydXK goes the same way as LMDE. What I mean is, huge update packs, with long waiting time, with plenty "stuff to fix", to get up and running or the risk of breaking the system.
Like Zill, I'm going to leave it to others to debate the pros and cons of one update frequency over any other. 8-)

That being said, I do understand your concern. I had them as well. During that period when changing the update frequency was being discussed, zerozero and I (and probably others) did some basic, off-the-cuff, testing/comparision to get a feel for what impact on Update Pack size the various frequencies might have. The general concensus was that a significant portion of each monthly UP was updates of packages that were updated in the previous UP; meaning that a longer UP release cycle would increase the size of the UP, but that increase was nothing like tripling the size. I think the working number arrived at was something in the neighborhood of 10% to 20% increase in size (but I could be wrong - one of the two brain cells I still have that work just went on strike ;) )

The cost (size of the UP) was not so great as to out-weigh the benefits of slowing down the update frequency and, thus, providing more time for testing. I think/assume (I don't know for sure as I was not party to private discussions) that one of the decision factors was a recognition of the types of problems you point out. And a longer testing period (15 days vs 5 days, previously) lends itself to uncovering and correcting these sorts of issues before the UP is released to the community - saving them (the using community) the grief of having to deal with these small, but annoying, issues.

Finally, to answer you last question quoted above; in a purely mathmatical sense, sure there is a risk of SolydXK moving to 6 month release cycle and HUGE Update Packs. Do I think that risk is significant? No.
Scott
Quoting zerozero, "The usage of PPA's in debian-based
systems is risky at best and entails serious compatibility
problems; usually it's the best way to destroy an install"

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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby zerozero » 11 Feb 2014 00:42

as some know i don't particularly like to compare lmde and solydxk (we have similarities but also huge differences)

anyway,
from UP7 to UP8 lmde was waiting almost 5 months (23 Sep 2013; 4 Fev 2014); in the same time-frame we would (almost) release 3 UP's (if we were already issuing UPs according to the new calendar);

===
back to us:
- more time between UP gives the users the opportunity to use and enjoy a stable system without the pending sword of every end of the month and another round of updates (the initial idea wasn't bad on paper but we were forcibly making everyone of you a tester :roll: )
- more time to test the UP (with meaningful tests and feedback) is paramount in this new scenario; 15 days has to be enough to stress the UP and find the cracks (and still have time to find fixes for them if possible or at least have them documented)
- lastly it's also important for the team; Schoelje can now have breathing space for more time consuming projects (i hear him talk about the need of replacing th existing updatemanager for months&months; guess what? it's now in testing; coincidence!?
bliss of ignorance

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stelios
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby stelios » 11 Feb 2014 01:04

zerozero wrote: - more time between UP gives the users the opportunity to use and enjoy a stable system without the pending sword of every end of the month and another round of updates (the initial idea wasn't bad on paper but we were forcibly making everyone of you a tester :roll: )
Actually, i was a about to make a post about this. I am really happy that there wasn't an update pack this month. Relaxed. I got to use my system rather than messing around with it every 4 weeks. And, there is plenty of time ahead to install the update pack, when i have time to do so, without worrying that i will miss one. When updates come too often, they interrupt your work schedule for no significant gain.

Unless the sole purpose of having an operating system on someone's computer is to constantly fiddle with it. ( that's what SID is there for) But if you actually use it to do some work, you have to stop what you are doing and deal with the update pack. And do it in time, before the next one.

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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 11 Feb 2014 06:53

Contrary to popular believe, the people spending lots of time on SolydXK do have a life outside SolydXK. There is the real priority: today is my daughter's 4th birthday, friends and family need me, and I need them. SolydXK must not interfere with that (too much). Discussing the UP frequency after we had that same discussion, and made a decision about it, is IMO a waste of time.


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dbVU
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby dbVU » 12 Feb 2014 12:30

Amen Schoelje! I'm very happy with the new UP schedule.

db

hirdel
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby hirdel » 13 Feb 2014 11:38

+1
its very great the way you do it. I like it. Thanx a lot - for doing that good job !!!

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configX
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby configX » 26 Mar 2014 01:21

I'm a little late one this but I also am happy with the current UP communication. Simple and effective.

Hutch
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby Hutch » 26 Mar 2014 18:21

Thought I'd chip in. I think your decision for the UP process is sound and may even preserve your sanity. ;) Quarterly...ish updates will free up time for you to sort any headaches. I say quarterlyish only because I feel if you need more flexibility to release when ready, that would be perfect imho.

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Arjen Balfoort
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Re: UP communication complaints.

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 26 Mar 2014 18:35

Hi Hutch, and welcome to our forum!

Although for most users some flexibility in the UP frequency is permitted, it would pose problems for organizations and businesses. We'll only deviate from the UP release dates very rarely.


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