UP process change

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Deleted User 2764

Re: UP process change

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 05 Jan 2014 20:05

patzy wrote:
RavenLX wrote: BTW, what is required of a tester anyway?? Just curious... What does a tester do? What exactly do they test and how? Is there a page or post on that topic and a way for testers to sign up?
I would like to know this, too. Does every tester test everything, or are certain sections allotted to various testers. Is there any way general users can help with, say, checking out their favourite software, or is a computer dedicated to just testing required?

I note that in your yearly report you mention getting out more detail on finances this quarter. Please do let us, the general users, know how we can help.
I am with you on this! I wouldn't mind helping with a test of this or that every so often. I have a couple laptops, one 64-bit and one 32-bit. So I could test both types. Both are running SolydK. I should go put that in my sig. :)

Deleted User 2764

Re: UP process change

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 05 Jan 2014 20:18

@Schoelje - Thank you for the info on testing. I've bookmarked zerozero's page on how to test and will give it a look over.

As for sponsorship/Donations, I will look into my budget as well. The minimum you ask is reasonable but I hope some of us can manage more than minimum when able.

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kobros
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Re: UP process change

Postby kobros » 05 Jan 2014 21:56

Igor83 wrote:
I like the idea of fewer updates, but better tested
I agree, mainly to the latter, but the time-for-testing the UP has only been increased from 1 week to 2 weeks.
That is -in my opinion- not enough to decrease the workload on the dev./test team. More testing time in needed.
I would suggest a 2-months period to prepare an initial (not finalized) UP + plus 3-4 weeks of adding updates that occur during the 3rd month and testing of all updates before releasing the (finalized, tested) quarterly UP.
Which means: 1 UP per quarter, but with more testing time (4 weeks in total).
Exactly how this would have to be organized and controlled, I don't know.
It's just an idea. You can shoot at it...:-)
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Deleted User 2764

Re: UP process change

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 05 Jan 2014 22:33

kobros wrote:I would suggest a 2-months period to prepare an initial (not finalized) UP + plus 3-4 weeks of adding updates that occur during the 3rd month and testing of all updates before releasing the (finalized, tested) quarterly UP.
Which means: 1 UP per quarter, but with more testing time (4 weeks in total).
I like this idea even better! If it would give the teams more time for getting things done and yet it would be enough for users to keep getting the latest versions and updates. Looks like a good compromise to me.

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igor83
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Re: UP process change

Postby igor83 » 06 Jan 2014 02:41

kobros wrote:Igor83 wrote:
I like the idea of fewer updates, but better tested
I agree, mainly to the latter, but the time-for-testing the UP has only been increased from 1 week to 2 weeks.
That is -in my opinion- not enough to decrease the workload on the dev./test team. More testing time in needed.
I would suggest a 2-months period to prepare an initial (not finalized) UP + plus 3-4 weeks of adding updates that occur during the 3rd month and testing of all updates before releasing the (finalized, tested) quarterly UP.
Which means: 1 UP per quarter, but with more testing time (4 weeks in total).
Exactly how this would have to be organized and controlled, I don't know.
It's just an idea. You can shoot at it...:-)
See, that has a downside too. An update freeze must take effect at some point. If the testing period is increased, then that means the window for new versions must close that much sooner. So the update won't be as "fresh" but will include stale versions, just like *buntu 13.10 included a lot of stale versions. Wesnoth 1.10.7 was released about a month prior to Ubuntu 13.10. Was it included? No, due to Ubuntu's freeze. Instead, you can get Wesnoth 1.10.6 from the Software Manager. (However, SolydXK of course offers Wesnoth 1.10.7 and I am running it today.)

There are pro's and con's to just about any update plan. Nothing is going to satisfy everybody 100%. I'm pretty flexible about the updating. As long as updates happen twice a year, I'm happy. Quarterly is quite generous, though. You know, as soon as I read about Solyd's plan for releasing updates every month, I thought to myself, "Dear God, I wonder how long that is going to last." It's just too much overhead really. Quarterly is more manageable and actually sounds like a more "solyd" approach.

If you are really jonesin' for an update, then I'd recommend adding the particular program developer's PPA, although one isn't available for Ktorrent and some other apps. I added the PPA for Wine, though, and am using version 1.7.10 even in Xubuntu 13.10. Wesnoth supposedly has a PPA, but I've had a lot of problems with the one that is for Ubuntu, so I don't bother with it anymore. For stuff like the Linux kernel and so on, I can wait 4-6 months, by God. I'd rather it be all tested and playing nice with Solyd.
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greywolf
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Re: UP process change

Postby greywolf » 06 Jan 2014 05:55

My position is and always has been 'your distro; your call'. The consultation is appreciated but whatever you can live with, users live with or leave.

My question is around Update ISO's. I have a number of people I support that will not go anywhere near a 500Mb update. It's a large part of why they left LMDE to come here. Their internet service comes from usb dongle using ratty 3G mobile phone (cell) towers, usually with very minimal monthly download quotas and speeds as slow as mollasses.

The only way these machines will be kept up to date is if I send them a CD/DVD with the updates on & a mechanism to install from the medium. Is any such mechanism contemplated to enable the creation of a "mini-iso" by user (me) to pass on to others?

Rough as guts, you could start with a clean cache, download the updates and AptOnCd them; then restore to other machine and use dpkg -i to do the install.?? I don't know the coding of your ( I assume) python scripts that actually do the update processing so I have no way of knowing if such a rudimentary method would break configurations or create other problems.

I am pretty sure I would be better off migrating these people to straight Debian Testing & deal with that myself rather than have them never update their SolydXK. These are people who do not want to run Debian Stable BTW!!

Any guidance appreciated.
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Arjen Balfoort
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Re: UP process change

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 06 Jan 2014 08:23

I think you can easily create the CD's with AptOnCD, then copy the deb files on your target machine in /var/cache/apt/archives/ and run

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
Taken from: http://aptoncd.sourceforge.net/doc-manual.html


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patzy
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Re: UP process change

Postby patzy » 06 Jan 2014 10:47

I think most of us users are a bit disappointed about going to a 3 month upgrade cycle, especially those who were attracted by the rolling release idea.

If the 3 months system works out how about aiming for a two monthly cycle for 2015 and getting back to one every month for 2016. Note that this would be a goal and not set in stone.

Of course it would all depend on getting a lot of support both in time and donations from users, but I am sure that if the aim of getting back to monthly upgrades was made known then users would rally round to help where they can.

After the upgrade this month, I intend to put SolydK on my production machine. If this is successful - and I'm sure it will be, I will happily turn my other one over to SolydK testing.

(I noted in the 2013 Report that most KDE users are 64 bit. Well I have SolydK running on a 32 bit machine that is 5 years old and has just 2Gb of memory, and so far SolydK has been just that - solid!)

mechanic
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Re: UP process change

Postby mechanic » 06 Jan 2014 14:09

Hmmm, it seems to me that the real problem is that these updates have been getting too big - 500MB+ month on month is getting ridiculous. Maybe some pressure back on package developers to slow down and test more would be sensible. Firefox for example is one big offender, it features on the list shown earlier of packages updated at least once every month. Why? All that does is make various add-ons fail at the new release until the add-on developer changes something (if they can be bothered). Thunderbird is in the same camp. Maybe sending the package developers on holiday for a month after each release/update would slow them down a bit. The kernel package is developed by many engineers, and there seems no real reason to update this so often, how often is it really necessary to include the latest drivers/modules? Those who want releases which really are updated on a rolling basis can move to Arch, no?

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igor83
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Re: UP process change

Postby igor83 » 06 Jan 2014 22:53

Reducing update time is simple. All one has to do is uninstall unneeded apps.
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zebedeeboss
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Re: UP process change

Postby zebedeeboss » 14 Jan 2014 06:36

tdockery97 wrote:I believe quarterly UP's makes a lot of sense. SolydXK is too good of a distro to risk losing due to developer burnout. I completely support your decision.
+1 100% agree
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Gonzalo_VC
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Re: UP process change

Postby Gonzalo_VC » 18 Jan 2014 19:33

I think the new UP system is good. Stability is needed! And updating 4 times a year is fine.
Security patches (small ones) come when needed right? Like Debian does.
It is good for what the distro proposes: to be nice, easy, modern yet stable.

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Deleted User 2764

Re: UP process change

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 18 Jan 2014 19:52

As far as I have read the security updates, Firefox and Thunderbird are pushed to production when they become available. All other things are put through the test phase and then released on the schedule mentioned in the OP.

I like the new schedule myself but I haven't been here before that so I don't know what it was like before. I came in at the tail end of an UP test and that kept me busy as it was.

I think that it will help give us more time to test things out, hopefully.

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sumitb
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Re: UP process change

Postby sumitb » 24 Feb 2014 17:58

Although I am very much in support of the new UP change, there is one thing that bothers me:

KDE point releases, like 4.11.x or 4.12.x, where only the x is changed, in my view should be part of the security updates that come in between of UPs. 3 months of time is major in such context and KDE team releases updates every month with critical security / other bug fixes. Not having these asap makes me shift in my seat a little. ;)

Major version upgrades like going from 4.11 to 4.12 can happen between UPs no issues.

Just sharing what I feel. I am a big KDE admirer and I like to have it as newest as possible in terms of point releases. Not comparing or anything, but Kubuntu team also provides point releases of KDE as they come, in between of their usual 6 months release cycle and it works just fine. The upstream testing process is quite good IMHO :)
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Re: UP process change

Postby Gonzalo_VC » 24 Feb 2014 18:12

I agree with "sumitb" about KDE.

Also: Libreoffice was updated to 4.2.1 because of small bugs in 4.2. I don't know if this is one of them, but in mine, I cannot install spell-checkers and dictionaries other than the native English default one :(
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Re: UP process change

Postby kurotsugi » 24 Feb 2014 18:39

KDE isn't part of security updates (and I see no reason why it should be a security update) but AFAIK it's part of solydxk's own repository and fully rolling. when I write this post we already have 4.12 in the repo while in debian testing we still have the old 4.11. we'll get the updates whenever solydxk have finished building the new version.
Libreoffice was updated to 4.2.1 because of small bugs in 4.2. I don't know if this is one of them, but in mine, I cannot install spell-checkers and dictionaries other than the native English default one :(

as for the libreoffice, it's not part of solydxk's own repository and will not upgraded until we get new UP. I don't know how did you get 4.2 but our libreoffice is still 4.1.5 while the next libreoffice in debian testing will be 4.2.1. libreoffice 4.2 never exist on any debian branch.

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sumitb
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Re: UP process change

Postby sumitb » 24 Feb 2014 19:10

kurotsugi wrote:KDE isn't part of security updates (and I see no reason why it should be a security update) but AFAIK it's part of solydxk's own repository and fully rolling. when I write this post we already have 4.12 in the repo while in debian testing we still have the old 4.11. we'll get the updates whenever solydxk have finished building the new version.
Libreoffice was updated to 4.2.1 because of small bugs in 4.2. I don't know if this is one of them, but in mine, I cannot install spell-checkers and dictionaries other than the native English default one :(

as for the libreoffice, it's not part of solydxk's own repository and will not upgraded until we get new UP. I don't know how did you get 4.2 but our libreoffice is still 4.1.5 while the next libreoffice in debian testing will be 4.2.1. libreoffice 4.2 never exist on any debian branch.
Why KDE point releases which are aimed at fixing critical bugs and being released every month can't be thought of as security releases? As if now, 4.12 is the major version of KDE, correct, and we are on KDE 4.12.1 not 4.12. The latest released version is 4.12.2, which is a not a major upgrade, just a bug fix version. I am talking about that. It is not similar to upgrading to a major version.

In case of libreoffice, you are right. Even LibreOffice's official site is not claiming the 4.2.x releases as appropriate for mainstream users. Instead, this new branch is for early adopters and power user's only, as quoted on their site. 4.1.5 is the latest stable.
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kurotsugi
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Re: UP process change

Postby kurotsugi » 24 Feb 2014 19:40

that's a different point a view about 'what is a security update'. I have different opinion about that definition. anyway, that's not our main point here. since kde is on solydxk's own repository, it's fully rolling and the upgrade policies isn't tied with the UP (in short, we'll get updates even if the UP is still not updated). the reason why we didn't get the upgrade is not because the UP is now frozen. it could be:
1. the update is released recently. the solydxk team haven't finished building it and testing it.
2. the solydxk team decided to skip this update for certain reason.
3. the solydxk team have different policy about kde update and only update kde when mayor version got released.

I believe the reason is number 1. solydxk team is now focused their work on polishing the solydxk tools and interface (they're testing new installer - update manager - and new theme at this moment) and they might doesn't have yet enough time to build and test the new kde.

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sumitb
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Re: UP process change

Postby sumitb » 24 Feb 2014 20:19

Hmm... That cleared things up for me, thanks! :) I also really hope that it's reason no 1 only, coz that situation will get resolved the quickest :)

And ya, I am aware of the new developments going on. In fact, I am thinking of joining the testing team as soon as I get free from the shifting of projects and work places (across countries) going on currently. It's too hectic :roll:
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Gonzalo_VC
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Re: UP process change

Postby Gonzalo_VC » 25 Feb 2014 12:30

kurotsugi wrote: as for the libreoffice, it's not part of solydxk's own repository and will not upgraded until we get new UP. I don't know how did you get 4.2 but our libreoffice is still 4.1.5 while the next libreoffice in debian testing will be 4.2.1. libreoffice 4.2 never exist on any debian branch.
You are (almost) right! I have 4.1.4.2 ... and I cannot install the dictionaries/spell-checkers from OXT files or whatsoever sources :evil: in a new SolydK installation (last ISO).
Does anybody have Portuguese and Spanish spell-checker addons there?? I'll pay for them :lol:

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