Further plans of SolydXK

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Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 17 May 2013 11:14

Obviously Canonical makes some strange decisions lately, so I must ask you for your opinion about Canonical's way to go with Ubuntu.

Do you think (like more of us) that Canonical lead Ubuntu into a some kind of "Appleisation"?
Canonical was announce that they develop own packaging system, what can injure Linux Mint's plans (this is my speculation, of course).
Do you think that LM team will move Linux Mint to LMDE as mainline, instead of currently Ubuntu based LM?

In that scenario it will be logical that LM team want to develop LMDE KDE and Xfce flavours as they own.

What will be happend with SolydXK if LM team decide to developing LMDE KDE and Xfce? Maybe some kind of fusion or you much prefer that SolydXK becomes new officialy LMDE KDE (and Xfce)? Or SolydXK has own way and always will be separate distro?

I ask this because Linux Mint has a huge community, so this will be benefit for all of us...or not?

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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 17 May 2013 11:23

Before I tell you what my ideas are about the subject, I'd like to see what others think first ;)


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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 17 May 2013 11:43

Schoelje wrote:Before I tell you what my ideas are about the subject, I'd like to see what others think first ;)
OK, I tell the question, so I will answer for myself :)

First, the facts:
  • LMDE is the distro founded on the best foundation in known Universe.
  • KDE is simply the best GUI (and much more than GUI - it is Software Compilation, the best - of course :))
  • The work of Schoelje (maybe more of you) on previously unofficial LMDE KDE is, of course - tremendous!
So, you have three crucial standings for success, IF LMDE team do not decide to develop own LMDE KDE (and Xfce) flavours.
If that happened than SolydXK will do not have sense, because SolydXK is mainly LMDE KDE (+ some pretty small programs like Steam Installer and Driver Manager).
Linux Mint is hardly fixed and stable in FLOSS community and they build a brand around Linux Mint. Very recognizable brand!
SolydXK will always be in the shadow of official LMDE KDE in this scenario.

So, I wish to SolydXK in this scenario that become a new official LMDE KDE (if LM team want that!), but Schoelje's experience with SolydXK's predecessor LMDE KDE is huge and I think that Clem know that! :)

Huh, I think that you understand what I want to say.

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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby GeneC » 17 May 2013 11:49

Clem has said often in the blog that Mint's basis would stay with a Ubuntu base, but I saw recently where his thinking might be changing...(Can't find the link right now, but I took it to mean that Mint might be going on its own path--whatever that might entail ??)

Personally I do not think that they will follow a Debian base. LMDE seems to be losing influence at Mint. With the development of Cinnamon, and support for Mate, Clem has a lot to consider. There was some talk of community editions of LMDE KDE and XFCE, but SolydXK can certainly stand on its own. We seem to have a better handle on the "Update Pack" system than Mint, and more frequent .iso releases (two areas to cause complaints at Mint). As we focus exclusively on KDE and XFCE we are bound to have more stable releases than community editions of Mint.

We have only been released for about 2 1/2 months, and grown quite rapidly with little fuss. The future of SolydXK is quite bright. Like its name implies its very SOLYD... ;)

It has the advantages of Debian (rolling/semi-rolling) with the ease of maintenance of Ubuntu (Update with UP's) with the two most stable (in my opinion) Desktops in Linux.
Its all good.
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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 17 May 2013 12:02

GeneC wrote: It has the advantages of Debian (rolling/semi-rolling) with the ease of maintenance of Ubuntu (Update with UP's) with the two most stable (in my opinion) Desktops in Linux.
Its all good.
Yes, it's stand!

But, my question is about (dystopian) future where Canonical lock down Ubuntu's repos for derivatives like Linux Mint. Current Canonical's decisions lead to some kind of that future (they want own Package system, own display server, own GUI, own...own...own) - you see? I think that is only matter of time when will Canonical locked Ubuntu repos for others.
And than? What than? LM team will be forced to make a quick switch to LMDE... ;)

Anyway, SolydXK is my new distro for every day usage (instead of openSUSE).

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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby GeneC » 17 May 2013 12:22

Grof wrote:'
.........
But, my question is about (dystopian) future where Canonical lock down Ubuntu's repos for derivatives like Linux Mint. Current Canonical's decisions lead to some kind of that future (they want own Package system, own display server, own GUI, own...own...own) - you see? I think that is only matter of time when will Canonical locked Ubuntu repos for others.
And than? What than? LM team will be forced to make a quick switch to LMDE... ;)

..........
Hi Grof

Interesting discussion... :)
Yes, I see what you mean. With Canonical appearing to make it harder for others to use their base and Mint based on Ubuntu I can see where Mint and other Ubuntu based distros might be looking into other options. I wish I could find that quote by Clem with his cryptic ;) quote about going off on his own path. I took that to mean leaving the Ubuntu base, but who knows? I have been using LMDE for about 2 1/2 years, and since its main developer left (Ikey). There seems to be less and less interest by the Mint developers in LMDE. I still use the Cinnamon version (with Gnome Shell.. :P ).

Mint COULD go to a Debian base, but again I doubt it. There seems to be little enthusiasm with the Mint developers for it. Of course that could change. Only time will tell.

EDIT:
I found the quote I was referencing above...
From Blog (Entry #13)
roj Says:
May 16th, 2013 at 8:32 am
Not to be a naysayer at Linux Mint per se, as much s being a total naysayer for Ubuntu’s new policies, but why would anyone in their right mind look at a release that will be supported for at best eight (8!) months?

Leave the beta testing to Canonical and look ONLY at the LTS releases. Before when a Mint release was supported for 16 months it was more or less “OK”, albeit not my cup of tea, but an eight month lifespan is sheer lunacy.

It’s my opinion that a high calibre distro like Mint would better serve its users by focusing on the LTS releases, thereby bringing long-term value to its users.

Just my 2 cents, seasonally adjusted for inflation…

Edit by Clem: You can use it for more than 8 months, this is only about security updates and backports. You make a valid point though. We considered basing this particular release on Precise. On of the reasons we didn’t was because we already had Nadia based on Quantal. Things might change for the next LTS release though, or by then it’s also possible we’ll have developed our own base… who knows? For now, here’s the very latest Linux Mint full of improvements, and yes, as you said, it will only receive security updates until January 2014.
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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 17 May 2013 12:40

GeneC wrote: There seems to be less and less interest by the Mint developers in LMDE. I still use the Cinnamon version (with Gnome Shell.. :P ).

Mint COULD go to a Debian base, but again I doubt it. There seems to be little enthusiasm with the Mint developers for it. Of course that could change. Only time will tell.

In that case, I'm so glad that we have SolydXK and good and enthusiastic team around it.

But, if its so small enthusiasm around LMDE, that's mean SolydXK stands directly on Debian but not on LMDE itself?
I thought that the main base of SolydXK is LMDE

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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby GeneC » 17 May 2013 12:51

SolydXK's LMDE roots go back to Schoelje's 'Unofficial LMDE KDE and XFCE's". There are still similarities to LMDE, but SolydXK stands completely on its own now. Its closer to straight Debian but with Schoelje's fine enhancements (Debian Device Manager, Debian Plymouth Manager, LightDM Manager, et). Update Manager and the "Update Packs" are patterned on LMDE, but stand on their own. If LMDE disappeared SolydXK would not be effected. Perhaps I should let Schoelje comment here, in case I mis-speak... ;)
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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 17 May 2013 12:57

GeneC wrote:SolydXK's LMDE roots go back to Schoelje's 'Unofficial LMDE KDE and XFCE's". There are still similarities to LMDE, but SolydXK stands completely on its own now. Its closer to straight Debian but with Schoelje's fine enhancements (Debian Device Manager, Debian Plymouth Manager, LightDM Manager, et). Update Manager and the "Update Packs" are patterned on LMDE, but stand on their own. If LMDE disappeared SolydXK would not be effected. Perhaps I should let Schoelje comment here, in case I mis-speak... ;)
Great! In that case the future of SolydXK is bright! Very bright! And community will continuously grows. :)

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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby GeneC » 17 May 2013 13:29

Just to be clear. I do not speak for SolydXK. This is just my own opinion.... :)
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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby cwwgateway » 17 May 2013 19:53

Grof wrote: Do you think (like more of us) that Canonical lead Ubuntu into a some kind of "Appleisation"?
Canonical was announce that they develop own packaging system, what can injure Linux Mint's plans (this is my speculation, of course).
Do you think that LM team will move Linux Mint to LMDE as mainline, instead of currently Ubuntu based LM?
I think Ubuntu is going in it's own direction and becoming more independent, but we are a long way from Apple. Right now I'm optimistic :) . I don't see a big problem with Ubuntu in the future (or at least a problem of that magnitude).

The Ubuntu packaging system actually seemed like a pretty cool idea, and it seemed like (from what I read) it could be used on other distributions as well:
Implementing the system in Python also means it's highly portable. Developers can potentially build packages on non-Ubuntu Linux distributions, Watson says, or even Windows or OS X, as long as they have Python installed.
from: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/09 ... _packages/

As for Linux Mint, I think the quote Gene referenced shows that Mint is considering a number of possibilities. I'm sure it would be a lot of work to switch bases, so they'd rather stay with using Ubuntu unless there is a really compelling reason to switch (or a big problem with Ubuntu).

I've observed the same as Gene; LMDE is not receiving much love from Linux Mint. If they ever have to rebase, I think they'd consider a wide range of options beyond LMDE. Clem does seem to have some interest in "develop[ing] [his] own base." IIRC, in the Mint 15 roadmap page on github, there was an R&D section where Clem mentioned that they would do some preliminary research into other bases or making their own base.
Grof wrote:What will be happend with SolydXK if LM team decide to developing LMDE KDE and Xfce? Maybe some kind of fusion or you much prefer that SolydXK becomes new officialy LMDE KDE (and Xfce)? Or SolydXK has own way and always will be separate distro?

I ask this because Linux Mint has a huge community, so this will be benefit for all of us...or not?
I'd imagine there would be collaboration between the two projects, but at this point we have our own identity. We are different from LMDE and Linux Mint, so I don't think we would merge. Personally, I'd be surprised if Mint rebased using Debian.
Grof wrote:If that happened than SolydXK will do not have sense, because SolydXK is mainly LMDE KDE (+ some pretty small programs like Steam Installer and Driver Manager).
I think at this point we are not LMDE KDE + some small programs. We have a monthly UP model, whereas LMDE has much more time between UPs. We are focused on Debian, Mint is focused on Ubuntu. We have Xfce 4.10, Steam, Skype 4.1.0.20, LibreOffice 4.0.1, etc. LMDE has Xfce 4.8 (it's in their repos), no Steam, no Skype, and LibreOffice 3.5.4.

Another point that I don't think has been brought up yet is SolydXK BO. SolydXK's purpose is different than Mint's in some regards; we also target small businesses. So far we haven't expanded too far in this direction, but we are starting to.
Grof wrote: But, my question is about (dystopian) future where Canonical lock down Ubuntu's repos for derivatives like Linux Mint. Current Canonical's decisions lead to some kind of that future (they want own Package system, own display server, own GUI, own...own...own) - you see? I think that is only matter of time when will Canonical locked Ubuntu repos for others.
I don't think so. Ubuntu has its own repos. And everything they make can be used on other distros (it's just really, really hard). As an example, Unity runs on Arch. It's still all free software. They do seem to like having their own stuff, but this isn't a bad thing from Ubuntu's perspective (they can control more components of the system).
GeneC wrote:SolydXK's LMDE roots go back to Schoelje's 'Unofficial LMDE KDE and XFCE's". There are still similarities to LMDE, but SolydXK stands completely on its own now. Its closer to straight Debian but with Schoelje's fine enhancements (Debian Device Manager, Debian Plymouth Manager, LightDM Manager, et). Update Manager and the "Update Packs" are patterned on LMDE, but stand on their own. If LMDE disappeared SolydXK would not be effected. Perhaps I should let Schoelje comment here, in case I mis-speak... ;)
I think this is very accurate Gene. SolydXK is based directly off of Debian. If LMDE disappeared, we'd have to replace some components (or start maintaining them on our own). However, this is doable, and we would definitely continue without LMDE.
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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 17 May 2013 20:31

Thank you, cwwgateway for this explanations.

Many things are clearer to me now. :)

Only thing what I would see in SolydK is newer KDE (like KDE 4.9.5 or even 4.10.x) but I can understand that will be very risky because it can affect to stability of system. So, maybe it is better solution stay with Debian testing KDE version.

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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 17 May 2013 21:04

I have just seen this topic at Phoronix:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTM3MjE

Especially this citation:
Martin concluded his latest Mir blog post with, "I’m not really optimistic that it will still be possible to provide the Ubuntu flavors once the transition to Mir is done. I don’t think that Canonical has any interest in the community provided distributions on top of Ubuntu any more. There are many small changes in the direction which indicate that. But we will see, maybe I’m too pessimistic."
So my projections of future is quite real. :(
In that case Linux Mint team must be worried!
It will be enough if Canonical drops X.org from repositories and stay only on Mir. LM than must packaged whole X.org and what than remains useful in Ubuntu repos? Kernel? ;)

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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby zerozero » 18 May 2013 03:14

Grof wrote:Obviously Canonical makes some strange decisions lately, so I must ask you for your opinion about Canonical's way to go with Ubuntu.

Do you think (like more of us) that Canonical lead Ubuntu into a some kind of "Appleisation"?
Canonical was announce that they develop own packaging system, what can injure Linux Mint's plans (this is my speculation, of course).
Do you think that LM team will move Linux Mint to LMDE as mainline, instead of currently Ubuntu based LM?

In that scenario it will be logical that LM team want to develop LMDE KDE and Xfce flavours as they own.

What will be happend with SolydXK if LM team decide to developing LMDE KDE and Xfce? Maybe some kind of fusion or you much prefer that SolydXK becomes new officialy LMDE KDE (and Xfce)? Or SolydXK has own way and always will be separate distro?

I ask this because Linux Mint has a huge community, so this will be benefit for all of us...or not?
This is a tremendous broad topic :P where we discuss
  • SolydXK identity
  • Ubuntu's future (specially Mir and the new app install)
  • Linuxmint future
GeneC wrote:SolydXK's LMDE roots go back to Schoelje's 'Unofficial LMDE KDE and XFCE's". There are still similarities to LMDE, but SolydXK stands completely on its own now. Its closer to straight Debian but with Schoelje's fine enhancements (Debian Device Manager, Debian Plymouth Manager, LightDM Manager, et). Update Manager and the "Update Packs" are patterned on LMDE, but stand on their own. If LMDE disappeared SolydXK would not be effected. Perhaps I should let Schoelje comment here, in case I mis-speak... ;)
cwwgateway wrote: I think at this point we are not LMDE KDE + some small programs. We have a monthly UP model, whereas LMDE has much more time between UPs. We are focused on Debian, Mint is focused on Ubuntu. We have Xfce 4.10, Steam, Skype 4.1.0.20, LibreOffice 4.0.1, etc. LMDE has Xfce 4.8 (it's in their repos), no Steam, no Skype, and LibreOffice 3.5.4.

Another point that I don't think has been brought up yet is SolydXK BO. SolydXK's purpose is different than Mint's in some regards; we also target small businesses. So far we haven't expanded too far in this direction, but we are starting to.
we could be seen as LMDE plus a different De plus a different package selection and some extra tweaks in the "unofficial period";
since then we have our own identity (with roots and inspiration on LMDE) but we stand directly on the shoulders of Debian.
(as a proof of this is almost impossible - and certainly not recommended - to migrate one system to another)

we have some software that looks alike (and this helps at the same the familiarity and the confusion) like updatemanager; but the similarities are only apparent, under the bonnet our updatemanager and mintupdate are 2 different applications.

same goes for the update-packs process: we took inspiration from Mint's model but we are delivering a different approach, closer to upstream, not using the UP as a buffer to preserve cinnamon's compatibility.

and SolydBO is one step further in our identity
SolydXK is an open source alternative for small businesses, non-profit organizations and home users.
====

regarding LMint's future all we can at the moment is speculate :lol:
i thought for some time that the swift to a debian base would be "just" a matter of time, now i'm not so sure Clem will rebase Mint directly in Debian.

during some time was on Mint's R&D this mysterious
R&D on "from scratch" package base and investigation on pros and cons of dpkg compared to other packaging systems (multi-version installation, static/dynamic support, snapshots, delta, update reversals etc..)
now removed;

the most recent Ubuntu changes (support span for non-LTS releases) leaves Mint in a uncomfortable position, how much of an hassle has to be build mint from ubuntu to consider another option?
there's a serious trade-off here: lose direct access to some ubuntu's technology (ubiquity, ppas, the servers infrastructure) or stand on its own feet.

====

Mir and the app install

Mir is a redundant useless effort (a severe case of NIH) but worst it will threaten wayland development and Xorg replacement;
The blog post Grof mentions above is only one of several that Martin wrote kwin/wayland/mir
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/ (lot of interesting stuff in there)
siego has also several writings about the subject https://plus.google.com/u/0/10755554069 ... zRy1rJaafc

the app install (this is a topic on itself) is another attempt (like linstaller, 0install, chakra's bundles, GNOME app bundle) to solve what is probably the biggest problem linux (as a whole) has to become mainstream (if we really want that - and the answer to this is not black/white either ;) )

there's a few ancient routines that have to be questioned if we want to conquer the desktop:
  • updating a single userland app can't be dependent on the whole system
    • we need to be able to update the browser/ the media player / the office suite without even knowing what is libc6 or xserver or libcairo or whatever
  • some app are more important than others
    • why we need to install and update ALL the apps as root? my phone runs Maemo and i don't need root to install or update
this is the major revolution linux has to tackle; Android already did it.
Will this app install (tailored to the ubuntu phone/tablet interface but probably migrating to the desktop as well later) be the answer?
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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 18 May 2013 13:57

Now, these are the discussions I like most!
Most of you know me long enough to know that my focus is not of a technical nature: I tend to look at things from the user's point of view. Some of the things that are discussed here are technically interesting, but I must admit: I sometimes have a hard time to follow :?. I blame my background: an artist with business experience who has developed some time along the way.

Fortunately I can count on zerozero to at least make it clear about what exactly is being discussed here:
  1. SolydXK identity
  2. Ubuntu's future (specially Mir and the new app install)
  3. Linuxmint future
SolydXK identity
Our identity is something that does, and will differentiate us from the rest. cww already mentioned it:
Another point that I don't think has been brought up yet is SolydXK BO. SolydXK's purpose is different than Mint's in some regards; we also target small businesses. So far we haven't expanded too far in this direction, but we are starting to.
I also want to cite myself on this regard (which makes writing this a lot easier :D ) from here:
SolydXK was created because I was frustrated with the technical focus of most distributions that seem to have forgotten about what I think is most imporant: the users. My working experience has been business, especially those people that venture into new areas, the entrepreneurs, and also the non-profit organizations because of the added social values to their communities.

The purpose of SolydXK is not to have the best DE, nor to have the latest software. That is mearly a means to an end. Its purpose must be found in helping people do their jobs, and hopefully have some fun along the way. A young company like SolydXK needs focus, and focus starts with knowing your limitations and strengths.
After SolydK BO, I'd like to focus on SolydX Server: a server for small businesses that do not have the budget for what they need, and cannot pay for a system administrator. Maintenance must be done by GUI's only, and it must come with the right documentation and simple instructions. So, even non-Linux users can get up and running without the need of in-depth Linux knowledge.

After that...well, let's say I have plans, but I'd like to take it step by step. :mrgreen:

Ubuntu's future
I don't know much about it. I'm focused on SolydXK so much that I hardly have time to look around. That's when I need you guys most: to point my attention to things that I need to know, and to advise me on possible risks and opportunities.

Linuxmint future
Although I'm still in contact with Clem, our communication always addresses development issues on projects we share. I can only speculate what's going on in his head, and it's not in my nature to speculate: I try to prevent to base my arguments on assumptions...I had some very nasty issues in the past when I did so. The only thing I know is that there's a lot of activity on Mint's IRC dev channel, and all are about Cinnamon, and you don't put so much time and effort in a single project if you don't intend to continue that project.

To close this post with a technical note :D :
All applications that came from Mint are forked, and since they were forked had undergone several changes, and improvements that you may or may not find in their Mint equivalents. This means there is no maintenance from upstream (Mint) needed to continue these packages:
  • live-installer
  • updatemanager
  • solydxk-softwaremanager
However, if we can find good alternatives with the same functionality that work in both SolydX AND SolydK, I wouldn't hesitate to replace them.


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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby MAYBL8 » 18 May 2013 14:50

After SolydK BO, I'd like to focus on SolydX Server: a server for small businesses that do not have the budget for what they need, and cannot pay for a system administrator. Maintenance must be done by GUI's only, and it must come with the right documentation and simple instructions. So, even non-Linux users can get up and running without the need of in-depth Linux knowledge.
As you know I am running a Linux server.
Right now it is a derivative of a debian based install with Solydxk repositories being used.
And BO packages installed on it.
I am running a mail server on it (postfix).
Webserver on it (Apache)

I don't have alot of time to devote to this but I will help in any way I can.

One comment to get started with on this is:
Most Linux servers up to this point focus on command line interface.
I prefer a GUI of some kind so I hope that is your intention.

We can discuss this more in the future and perhaps start a new thread for these discussions.
Thanks
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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 18 May 2013 15:06

MAYBL8 wrote:
One comment to get started with on this is:
Most Linux servers up to this point focus on command line interface.
I prefer a GUI of some kind so I hope that is your intention.
openSUSE distribution is that one which use GUI as command interface for server services like mail, http, dns and other.

All of those daemons are controlled by YaST GUI interface ;)

But, on other side, many professional sysops will use only CLI interface, and running X.org is something what is eat too much RAM.

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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 18 May 2013 15:13

I like your enthusiasm regarding SolydX Server, but let's wait with that when the time comes. It's a completely different topic.


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Re: Further plans of SolydXK

Postby Grof » 18 May 2013 15:26

Schoelje wrote:I like your enthusiasm regarding SolydX Server, but let's wait with that when the time comes. It's a completely different topic.
Right decision from my point of view. ;)

SolydXK must be pointed to ordinary users in desktop domain. Especially if LMDE will be abandoned.
My suggestion will be trying to implement a newer version of KDE instead of Debian's. I know, that is the job (with capital "J" :) ). But this is something what can be interesting for a wider community.
KDE is one of the most importing part of SolydK and it will be good that it's up to date.
Other things, like kernel, daemons and other essential for stability should be kept from Debian repos. ;)


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