PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

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DebianBoston
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PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby DebianBoston » 19 Jan 2014 19:21

This was an interesting video. Watch. What do you all make of it? PPA on Debian, finally??!!? lol

http://bit.ly/1hDMjiz

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ScottQuier
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby ScottQuier » 19 Jan 2014 19:41

DebianBoston wrote:This was an interesting video. Watch. What do you all make of it? PPA on Debian, finally??!!? lol

http://bit.ly/1hDMjiz
What I make of it:
  • As he pointed out toward the end of the video, if you contaminate your sources.list with PPA links, you have to be very careful about pulling software - you have to make sure it's all coming from your repos. That can, I believe, get problematic when it's time to do a dist-upgrade.
  • It's almost as easy to go to the PPA of choice, click on the "view package details" link, and download the appropriate compressed tar files, unpack them, compile them, and finally install the software.
  • His process automates the compile stage once the source has been downloaded - automating things, which implies accepting defaults, can get one into trouble.
  • Oh, and do you know to where the source has been downloaded? Can you remove it from disk?
Scott
Quoting zerozero, "The usage of PPA's in debian-based
systems is risky at best and entails serious compatibility
problems; usually it's the best way to destroy an install"

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zerozero
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby zerozero » 20 Jan 2014 10:38

the topic subject (and the video title) is a bit misleading :lol:
it's not about PPA support in debian, it's about grabbing the source code and recompiling it against your own system. nothing particularly new. it's being done for years.
just to give you some examples
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 55#p626298 (Sept, 2012)
http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php? ... 05&p=22750
http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php? ... 81&p=22530

the main question here is: how many will follow the correct procedure and do the compiling and not fall in the easy temptation of install the ubuntu deb? after all it is there available and in some (not all) situations the installation will be clean (the issues will surface later, too late most of the time)
bliss of ignorance

DebianBoston
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby DebianBoston » 20 Jan 2014 17:11

zerozero wrote:the topic subject (and the video title) is a bit misleading :lol:
:) 8-)

Fargo
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby Fargo » 20 Jan 2014 17:47

As someone whos never used Ubuntu or any of its derivatives, I find all this ppa talk rather confusing. I have a friend that recently installed Kubuntu and to me it seemed harder to find a trust worthy ppa than it is is to simply use the repos available by default. There are very few programs that Debian doesn't have that I need. And those that aren't available are all proprietary windows only stuff. So why is everyone trying to drag in programs that aren't made for Debian. You might as well go out and start grabbing .rpms too.

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Zill
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby Zill » 20 Jan 2014 21:12

Fargo wrote:...So why is everyone trying to drag in programs that aren't made for Debian. You might as well go out and start grabbing .rpms too.
+1

PPAs are for Ubuntu. SolydXK is not Ubuntu!

Trying to shoehorn Ubuntu PPAs into SolydXK is just likely to end in tears. :(

Fargo
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby Fargo » 20 Jan 2014 21:38

Zill wrote:
Fargo wrote:...So why is everyone trying to drag in programs that aren't made for Debian. You might as well go out and start grabbing .rpms too.
+1

PPAs are for Ubuntu. SolydXK is not Ubuntu!

Trying to shoehorn Ubuntu PPAs into SolydXK is just likely to end in tears. :(
Not to mention confuse new users. I can't tell you how many times I see post on the forums saying they looked at SolydXK and other Ubuntu dervatives. For some reason, people have a hard time understanding SolydXK is not Ubuntu based. Calling repos ppa's or using ppa sources for programs really makes it confusing for new users. Especially those coming from Ubuntu who will likely start grabbing ppas and including them in sources.

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zerozero
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby zerozero » 21 Jan 2014 00:32

Fargo wrote:So why is everyone trying to drag in programs that aren't made for Debian.
as someone that is dealing with this issue for some time i can see a few reasons (if they are worthy bOrking your system it's another discussion altogether)

A- familiarity

most of these users are migrating (or migrated recently) from an *buntu distro and today for the good and bad (in my personal opinion bad) most of ubuntu-related news have PPA instructions; and why is this?
as i see it mainly for 2 reasons:
  1. ubuntu is a point release (no news here :) ) but tightly related with this the fact that ubuntu freezes several weeks (roughly 2 months) before the release https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule meaning that when a release goes public most of the software is at least 2 months old;
  2. this is additionally important because ubuntu doesn't update meaningfully the releases during its life cicle https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates (only a few app will update - excluding security updates - during an ubuntu release)
this was (probably) one of the first reasons why PPA's became so popular: it was an easy way to refresh ubuntu;
and we saw several software houses adopting the PPA vehicle as well to deliver stable, unstable and nightly builds (being that usually the stable was the version on the repos)

===

B- lower threshold

at the same time we saw something else unexpected:
first time developers; skilled users using launchpad to deliver their work (work with launchpad is easier than work with debian)

this part of launchpad is both interesting (shows the resources of the FOSS community) and worrying (it's really easy to create a launchpad account meaning that anybody can do it; furthermore there's no warranties that the PPA will be active in one month leaving users with errors to solve)
the worst part is that nobody controls the quality of the buildings or code that is build there (as long as it builds it's ok)
bliss of ignorance

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ScottQuier
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby ScottQuier » 21 Jan 2014 13:22

Fargo wrote:So why is everyone trying to drag in programs that aren't made for Debian.
I do not have the long history/experience with Linux that many here do so I can't/won't generalize. But, I do have two specific examples that may bring a dim beam of light to bear on this question:
  1. Darktable is, IMNSHO, the best application for developing/editing the RAW image data produced by current digital cameras to generate usable pictures (JPG, TIFF, GIF, etc). The SolydXK repo maintained version 1.2 for a long time. There are many new features that were being released and the only way to get them on a Debian based system was to acquire their source code and compile it. The devleopers are using launchpad as one outlet for their product; they also use git. So, acquiring the source code from the launchpad PPA and compiling it was, realistically, my only option.
  2. I make a similar case for the OnBoard virtual keyboard. My investigation revealed to me that this was the best solution to the problem I was attempting to solve; installing a working SolydXK solution on my x86 based tablet. There were a couple of virtual keybaords in the SolydXK repo, but they were lacking, in some ways hugely lacking, in many features or aspects of usability. The OnBoard virtual keybaord answered all my needs but the only way to acquire it was to ... you guessed it ... download and compile the source and install the resuting deb.
With the above having been said, I believe one has to be a bit careful. As zerozero pointed out, anyone can establish a LaunchPad PPA. One has to (should) perform due diligence before compiling and installing software from an unvetted source. My method of doing so is to look for (and read) reviews; determine how long the project has been in existance; is the project under active development; do the project devs respond to questions, comments, and the like.

As a final note for those new to Debian (newer than me anyway) - attempting to download and install deb files intended for *buntu installations is a good way to eventually (if not sooner) bork your system. I've been there, done that. It wasn't pretty. Instead, download the source code, compile it on your system, and install the resulting deb files.
Scott
Quoting zerozero, "The usage of PPA's in debian-based
systems is risky at best and entails serious compatibility
problems; usually it's the best way to destroy an install"

DebianBoston
Posts: 94
Joined: 20 Sep 2013 03:42

Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby DebianBoston » 23 Jan 2014 11:36

Excellent discussion here! :) I'm so glad I switched to Solyd! ;)

Deleted User 2763

Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 23 Jan 2014 16:56

If you download a deb, like from UtraEdit, jEdit, NoMachine, etc that is built for Ubuntu, it won't bork your system.
I just won't install if it expects a dependency that only Ubunutu can satisfy. However if you add ppa to sources.list (or sources.list.d) then it will pull in Ubunutu dependencies if they are required. There is the the possibility of borking your system.

Also, SolydXK is built Debian testing.
Ubuntu is a mixed distro based on Debian unstable, Debian testing, backports, and Ubunutu fixes. I think they should have called it Debian sausage, instead of Ubuntu.

-Hinto

kurotsugi
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby kurotsugi » 23 Jan 2014 17:10

not every *.deb files for ubuntu is incompatible with debian and there're are some ppa designed for debian. I have these ppa for a long time

Code: Select all

deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/linrunner/tlp/ubuntu lucid main
deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/rebuntu16/other-stuff/ubuntu saucy main
the first one is for tlp and that repo contain *.deb for debian and designed to fully compatible with debian testing. the second one contain some stuffs which I can't found in debian repo, namely thunar-dropbox-plugin. for safety reason I modify /etc/apt/preferences so that any package dependency will be taken from debian repo.

Deleted User 2763

Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 23 Jan 2014 17:12

Right...
But once you add a ppa, you'll get other ppa debs (unless you start using apt-pinning)
-Hinto

kurotsugi
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby kurotsugi » 23 Jan 2014 17:26

sadly, that's true. with only that two ppa this preferences usullay enough

Code: Select all

Package: *
Pin: release o=Unofficial Multimedia Packages
Pin-Priority: 600

Package: *
Pin: origin ftp.nl.debian.org
Pin-Priority: 600
nevertheless, if I add more ppa I'll need to create a new rule for my own safety :lol:

Deleted User 2763

Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 23 Jan 2014 17:29

It might make like easier if you set SolydXK to track SID, rather than testing.
I'd think it's more likely to find a version in sid that will satisfy a version dependency from a ppa.
-H

kurotsugi
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby kurotsugi » 23 Jan 2014 18:03

sounds interesting, but no, thanks. I still need debian testing's stability for my daily use. all my ppa package almost never install any dependency or already satisfied with everything on testing. even if I got unsatisfied dependency I'll prefer to use ppa for older version such as quantal or raring.

Deleted User 2763

Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 23 Jan 2014 18:04

My sid point goes back to where Ubuntu is created. It's starting point is sid, so there would [probably] be less incompatibilities.
-H

kurotsugi
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby kurotsugi » 23 Jan 2014 18:38

ubuntu is based on unstable. when they grow old, their packages will receive some bug fixing and move into testing. at this time, current packages in raring have nearly same version with the one in testing. thus, the incompability issue is not a problem if we're using ppa for raring. I prefer using this trick since it allow us to install package from a ppa without further compromising system's stability.

Deleted User 2763

Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 23 Jan 2014 18:41

You mean Debian unstable, not experimental.
Debian unstable and SID are the same. That Toy Story name will always be unstable.
-Hinto

FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28 ... _system%29
"Ubuntu packages are based on packages from Debian's unstable branch"

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zerozero
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Re: PPA on Debian - sort of? Video

Postby zerozero » 23 Jan 2014 19:34

kurotsugi wrote:not every *.deb files for ubuntu is incompatible with debian and there're are some ppa designed for debian
sorry, not exactly;
in the 2 examples that you give if you go to the supported releases you don't see debian anywhere but you see a lot of ubuntu releases
http://ppa.launchpad.net/linrunner/tlp/ubuntu/dists/
http://ppa.launchpad.net/rebuntu16/othe ... ntu/dists/

so this still means that it might work on debian if
  • if you chose the appropriate ubuntu release
  • if you allow that given app to satisfy the dependencies from the PPA
    • or probably with extra luck you have the dependencies in the repos
  • but it can become incompatible with the next major upgrade
it's still a shot-in-dark kind-of-thing
bliss of ignorance


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