Kwin in xfce: the return of the eyecandy

[zerozero]

differently from the howto about compton where we just replaced the default compositor but kept the xfce default window manager (xfwm4) here we are going to replace both with kwin (kde's window manager and compositor)

kwin brings a lot more eye-candy (similar to compiz), desktop effects, animations, transparencies (you get the picture )

why use it in xfce? for the same number of reasons people used compiz; if you were a compiz fan and miss it this might be for you; if you never cared about it, well, carry on ...

the first method i tried (several months ago) was this
Iframe is not allowed anymore. Click here to watch the movie.
IMO technically is the more correct way of doing it because we are replacing at boot xfwm4 with kwin (and not starting one and then the other)
unfortunately this method might not work for all (i had different results with sometimes similar setups)

there's some things in that howto to point out:

1. basically we only need kde-window-manager

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   apt install kde-window-manager

   in a fresh install of X-64bit 201311 this means

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   0 upgraded, 86 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
   Need to get 42.3 MB of archives.

2. the cp command in the YT description is broken for me (there's an extra space in 2 of the xml entries
   (this is just one-liner)

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   cp /etc/xdg/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-session.xml ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-session.xml

   
   (when pasting on terminal make sure that the syntax is exactly the same)
3. same happens to me with the second command

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   mousepad ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-session.xml

   in the text look for line 12 and replace "xfwm4" with "kwin"
   save, close

once the packages are installed you can try kwin in the system with

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kwin --replace &

===

• the screen should flicker some but kwin should kick-in.
• if it does, reboot; kwin should start automatically at this point.
• if it doesn't, the most probable cause is openGL support (kwin is more demanding than xfwm4)
• if this happens one possible solution is to start kwin manually and in window manager settings change the compositing type and the qt graphics system.
• in VB i can't get the above method to work consistently; i have to add "kwin --replace" to the startup applications and there's no issues then.
• in my laptop (with fglrx) it works flawlessly

[zerozero]

the other method is Spatry's
Iframe is not allowed anymore. Click here to watch the movie.
it's a very imaginative way of doing it basically we create 2 launchers that allow us to hot-swap between both WM at ease. way cool!!

also in the vid. we can see nice tips on customization and effects (always a plus if you are a long time xfce user and not very familiar with kde )

Note: dekorator is broken atm, we can't install it

[J.Jay]

Technical question (I'm a non-techy type)

What the resorces/memerory usage compared to Xfwm?
Responsiveness (know depends on hardware have)?
I see the Xfce panel can still be used (eyes old/blurry) but are certain plugin can't be used?


Thank You
J.Jay

[hushpuppy]

differently from the howto about compton where we just replaced the default compositor but kept the xfce default window manager (xfwm4) here we are going to replace both with kwin (kde's window manager and compositor)

kwin brings a lot more eye-candy (similar to compiz), desktop effects, animations, transparencies (you get the picture )

>8 snip 8<

1. basically we only need kde-window-manager

   Code: Select all

   apt install kde-window-manager

   in a fresh install of X-64bit 201311 this means

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   0 upgraded, 86 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
   Need to get 42.3 MB of archives.

   >8 snip 8<

Basically, this is why it's such a bad idea:

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# apt show kde-window-manager
Package: kde-window-manager
Depends: kde-runtime (> 4:4.10), kde-style-oxygen (= 4:4.10.5-3), libc6 (>=
         2.4), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.1), libgl1-mesa-glx | libgl1, libice6 (>=
         1:1.0.0), libkactivities6 (>= 4:4.10), libkcmutils4 (>= 4:4.4.95),
         libkdeclarative5 (>= 4:4.7.0), libkdecorations4abi1 (= 4:4.10.5-3),
         libkdecore5 (>= 4:4.4.0), libkdeui5 (>= 4:4.7.0), libkio5 (>= 4:4.4.0),
         libknewstuff3-4 (>= 4:4.4.0), libkwineffects1abi4 (= 4:4.10.5-3),
         libkwinglutils1abi1 (= 4:4.10.5-3), libkworkspace4abi2 (= 4:4.10.5-3),
         libplasma3 (>= 4:4.4.95), libqt4-dbus (>= 4:4.6.1), libqt4-declarative
         (>= 4:4.7.0~rc1), libqt4-script (>= 4:4.6.1), libqtcore4 (>= 4:4.8.0),
         libqtgui4 (>= 4:4.8.0), libsm6, libstdc++6 (>= 4.1.1), libx11-6,
         libx11-xcb1, libxcb-damage0, libxcb-xfixes0, libxcb1, libxcomposite1
         (>= 1:0.3-1), libxcursor1 (> 1.1.2), libxext6, libxfixes3 (>= 1:4.0.1),
         libxrandr2 (>= 2:1.2.0), libxrender1, libxxf86vm1
Breaks: kde-style-bespin (< 0.r1552-1+), kde-style-skulpture, kde-workspace-data
        (< 4:4.8.4-0r5), kdeartwork-theme-window (< 4:4.9.5),
        kdebase-workspace-data (< 4:4.7.2), kwin-style-crystal (< 2.2.1),
        kwin-style-dekorator, kwin-style-qtcurve (< 1.8.14-2+)
Replaces: kde-workspace-data (< 4:4.8.4-0r5), kdebase-workspace-data (< 4:4.7.2)
Provides: x-window-manager

typical kbloat and dependency hell. What might this mean to an XFCE install?

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$ for i in qt gnome gtk xfce ; do echo ${i}: $(dpkg -l | grep $i | wc -l) ; done | column -s: -t
qt      7
gnome   15
gtk     50
xfce    63

An extra 86 packages on top of the mess that is gtk and gnome.

If you really must have kbling, wouldn't it be easier to install KDE, rather than have two disparate desktop environments competing with each other?

[zerozero]

i was here thinking "what the heck! having a bad day?" "if you don't like it, leave it alone, don't use it!"

but then, nahh, i'm not so zen

dependency hell

no, it's not. it install cleanly. or i don't understand what is dependency hell.

An extra 86 packages on top of the mess that is gtk and gnome.

that aren't either gtk or gnome, so i don't see where is the problem.
it's true that installs far too many lib for what it is but it's a known issue that Martin and Seigo (among others) are committed to solve with KF5.

If you really must have kbling, wouldn't it be easier to install KDE

no, if i want to keep using xfce (and there's good reasons for that).
i might however want to "improve" (subjective evaluation) some of its aspects.

rather than have two disparate desktop environments competing with each other?

but i'm not installing 2 DE in combo; i'm installing a different WM+compositor in xfce, like i can install openbox in kde or in razor-qt.

surely this is not for everyone (guess i said that in the OP) but if you were a compiz aficionado (and pst. compiz is gone) this might very well be a valid option.

[cowboyup02]

Dependencies not met, will not install! seems too be missing dependencies! even in synaptic it won't install everything.

[zerozero]

Dependencies not met, will not install! seems too be missing dependencies! even in synaptic it won't install everything.

welcome to SolydXK
can you please open a terminal window and share the following outputs

Code: Select all

inxi -Sr

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sudo apt-get -s install kde-window-manager

[cowboyup02]

Dependencies not met, will not install! seems too be missing dependencies! even in synaptic it won't install everything.

welcome to SolydXK
can you please open a terminal window and share the following outputs

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inxi -Sr

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sudo apt-get -s install kde-window-manager

Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
kde-window-manager : Depends: kde-runtime (> 4:4.10) but it is not going to be installed
Depends: kde-style-oxygen (= 4:4.11.4-90r1.2+b6) but it is not going to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

and for the first one:

System: Host: solydx Kernel: 3.11-2-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit) Desktop: Xfce 4.10.2 Distro: SolydXK 1 testing
Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://packages.solydxk.nl/production/ solydxk main upstream import kdenext community
deb http://debian.solydxk.nl/production testing main contrib non-free
deb http://debian.solydxk.nl/production testing non-free
deb http://debian.solydxk.nl/security testing/updates main contrib non-free
deb http://community.solydxk.nl/production/ solydxk main
deb http://downloads.sourceforge.net/projec ... ozilla/apt all main
deb http://downloads.sourceforge.net/projec ... ozilla/apt all main
Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/google-earth.list
deb http://dl.google.com/linux/earth/deb/ stable main
Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/google-talkplugin.list
deb http://dl.google.com/linux/talkplugin/deb/ stable main
Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/spideroak.com.sources.list
deb http://apt.spideroak.com/ubuntu-spideroak-hardy/ release restricted
Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/steam.list
deb http://repo.steampowered.com/steam/ precise steam
deb-src http://repo.steampowered.com/steam/ precise steam

[zerozero]

you have an error on line 3

this doesn't exist

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deb http://debian.solydxk.com/production testing non-free

should be replaced with

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deb http://debian.solydxk.com/production/multimedia testing main non-free

furthermore the community section in line 1 is duplicated, you can remove that part; you 'll find the relevant repo in

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deb http://community.solydxk.com/production/ solydxk main

that you should leave as-is

back on the issue:
run

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apt update && apt dist-upgrade && apt dist-upgrade

exactly like that


try again

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sudo apt-get -s install kde-window-manager

[cowboyup02]

Thanks I'm updating now.

[hushpuppy]

i was here thinking "what the heck! having a bad day?" "if you don't like it, leave it alone, don't use it!"

but then, nahh, i'm not so zen

Not at all. I just disagree very strongly about using kde-window-manager with xfce.

dependency hell

no, it's not. it install cleanly. or i don't understand what is dependency hell.

It may install cleanly, but just look at all the dependencies, and dependencies of dependencies. Just look at the UP threads, and see the dependency issues.

An extra 86 packages on top of the mess that is gtk and gnome.

that aren't either gtk or gnome, so i don't see where is the problem.
it's true that installs far too many lib for what it is but it's a known issue that Martin and Seigo (among others) are committed to solve with KF5.

The problem is that xfce is built on gtk + gnome. kwin is built on kde + qt. Two completely different toolkits and environments... and that's just gtk. gtk2 and gtk3. Then there's gnome2 and gnome3. Two different philosophies. Now you want to add all the complexity of kde + qt. It's like having a small, second-hand car and putting a tank engine in it.

If you really must have kbling, wouldn't it be easier to install KDE

no, if i want to keep using xfce (and there's good reasons for that).
i might however want to "improve" (subjective evaluation) some of its aspects.

rather than have two disparate desktop environments competing with each other?

but i'm not installing 2 DE in combo; i'm installing a different WM+compositor in xfce, like i can install openbox in kde or in razor-qt.

But an xfce install has absolutely no dependencies on kde or qt. A kde install will include gtk. To me, it would make more sense to add xfce to a kde install.

As soon as I can figure out how to use openbox instead of xfwm for xfce, I will. But, I'm in the process of moving from xfce to razor-qt. So, lets have a look at openbox:

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# apt show openbox
Package: openbox
Uncompressed Size: 1,337 k
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.4), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.35.9), libice6 (>= 1:1.0.0),
         libobrender27 (>= 3.5.0), libobt0 (>= 3.5.0), libsm6,
         libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.7), libx11-6, libxext6, libxinerama1,
         libxml2 (>= 2.7.4), libxrandr2, libxrender1, python-xdg
Recommends: openbox-themes, obconf
Suggests: menu, ttf-dejavu, python, libxml2-dev

# apt show obconf
Package: obconf
Uncompressed Size: 817 k
Depends: libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libc6 (>= 2.4), libcairo2 (>= 1.2.4),
         libfontconfig1 (>= 2.8.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0
         (>= 2.22.0), libglade2-0 (>= 1:2.6.1), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0),
         libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0), libice6 (>= 1:1.0.0), libimlib2, libobt0,
         libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.18.0), libsm6, libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.2),
         libx11-6, libxft2 (> 2.1.1), libxml2 (>= 2.7.4)

and compare with xfwm

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# apt show xfwm4
Package: xfwm4
Uncompressed Size: 2,171 k
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.4), libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.78), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>=
         2.22.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0),
         libpango-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.7),
         libwnck22 (>= 2.30.0-3), libx11-6, libxcomposite1 (>= 1:0.3-1),
         libxdamage1 (>= 1:1.1), libxext6, libxfce4ui-1-0 (>= 4.9.0),
         libxfce4util6 (>= 4.9.0), libxfconf-0-2 (>= 4.6.0), libxfixes3,
         libxrandr2, libxrender1
Recommends: xfwm4-themes, librsvg2-common

Compare the dependencies. Both are lightweight window managers. Both are gtk2.

surely this is not for everyone (guess i said that in the OP) but if you were a compiz aficionado (and pst. compiz is gone) this might very well be a valid option.

No complaints from me that compiz is gone.

What I really disagreed with was:

basically we only need kde-window-manager

It's everything else you missed out:

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 # apt-get -s install kde-window-manager
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  docbook-xsl kate-data katepart kde-runtime kde-runtime-data kde-style-oxygen kdelibs-bin kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools
  libattica0.4 libbasicusageenvironment0 libchromaprint0 libclucene-core1 libdbusmenu-qt2 libdlrestrictions1 libdvbpsi9 libebml4 libepub0
  libfreerdp1 libgroupsock1 libiodbc2 libkactivities6 libkatepartinterfaces4 libkcmutils4 libkde3support4 libkdeclarative5
  libkdecorations4abi1 libkdecore5 libkdesu5 libkdeui5 libkdewebkit5 libkdnssd4 libkemoticons4 libkfile4 libkhtml5 libkidletime4 libkio5
  libkjsapi4 libkjsembed4 libkmediaplayer4 libknewstuff3-4 libknotifyconfig4 libkntlm4 libkparts4 libkpty4 libkrosscore4 libktexteditor4
  libkwineffects1abi4 libkwinglutils1abi1 libkworkspace4abi2 libkxmlrpcclient4 liblivemedia16 libmatroska6 libnepomuk4 libnepomukcore4
  libnepomukquery4a libnepomukutils4 libnl-route-3-200 libntrack-qt4-1 libntrack0 libphonon4 libplasma3 libqca2 libqt4-opengl libsolid4
  libsoprano4 libssh-4 libstreamanalyzer0 libstreams0 libthreadweaver4 libusageenvironment1 libvlc5 libvlccore7 libxcb-damage0 libxml2-utils
  libzip2 nepomuk-core-data nepomuk-core-runtime ntrack-module-libnl-0 oxygen-icon-theme phonon phonon-backend-vlc
  plasma-scriptengine-javascript shared-desktop-ontologies soprano-daemon vlc-data vlc-nox
Suggested packages:
  dbtoepub docbook-xsl-doc-html docbook-xsl-doc-pdf docbook-xsl-doc-text docbook-xsl-doc docbook-xsl-saxon fop libsaxon-java libxalan2-java
  libxslthl-java xalan djvulibre-bin icoutils finger libchromaprint-tools python-acoustid freerdp-x11 iodbc hspell libqca2-plugin-cyrus-sasl
  libqca2-plugin-gnupg libqca2-plugin-ossl media-player-info phonon-backend-gstreamer phonon-backend-mplayer
Recommended packages:
  docbook-xml virtuoso-minimal ttf-dejavu libkactivities-bin ca-certificates udisks2 vlc
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  docbook-xsl kate-data katepart kde-runtime kde-runtime-data kde-style-oxygen kde-window-manager kdelibs-bin kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins
  kdoctools libattica0.4 libbasicusageenvironment0 libchromaprint0 libclucene-core1 libdbusmenu-qt2 libdlrestrictions1 libdvbpsi9 libebml4
  libepub0 libfreerdp1 libgroupsock1 libiodbc2 libkactivities6 libkatepartinterfaces4 libkcmutils4 libkde3support4 libkdeclarative5
  libkdecorations4abi1 libkdecore5 libkdesu5 libkdeui5 libkdewebkit5 libkdnssd4 libkemoticons4 libkfile4 libkhtml5 libkidletime4 libkio5
  libkjsapi4 libkjsembed4 libkmediaplayer4 libknewstuff3-4 libknotifyconfig4 libkntlm4 libkparts4 libkpty4 libkrosscore4 libktexteditor4
  libkwineffects1abi4 libkwinglutils1abi1 libkworkspace4abi2 libkxmlrpcclient4 liblivemedia16 libmatroska6 libnepomuk4 libnepomukcore4
  libnepomukquery4a libnepomukutils4 libnl-route-3-200 libntrack-qt4-1 libntrack0 libplasma3 libqca2 libqt4-opengl libsolid4 libsoprano4
  libssh-4 libstreamanalyzer0 libstreams0 libthreadweaver4 libusageenvironment1 libvlc5 libvlccore7 libxcb-damage0 libxml2-utils libzip2
  nepomuk-core-data nepomuk-core-runtime ntrack-module-libnl-0 oxygen-icon-theme phonon phonon-backend-vlc plasma-scriptengine-javascript
  shared-desktop-ontologies soprano-daemon vlc-data vlc-nox
The following packages will be upgraded:
  libphonon4
1 upgraded, 88 newly installed, 0 to remove
Need to get 73.1 MB of archives.
After this operation, 199 MB of additional disk space will be used.

I've already got some qt libs installed, and I haven't run the latest update pack, and some dependencies have changed since you wrote the article, but that list of packages should be reasonably accurate.

1 upgraded, 88 newly installed, 0 to remove
Need to get 73.1 MB of archives.
After this operation, 199 MB of additional disk space will be used.

All of that just to make it look pretty.

Of course, some people might think it's worth it. Some people might want to consider all the ramifications of installing all of those dependencies. Some people might want to consider just installing kde.

I just strongly believe that this is such a bad idea, I had to give some reasons why. This isn't an attack against you personally. Your post on razor-qt has persuaded me to switch to it. Your posts on the mint forums persuaded me to use Solyd. It's just, on this occasion, I disagree.

[fleabus]

removed by fleabus - ot

[zerozero]

As soon as I can figure out how to use openbox instead of xfwm for xfce, I will.

will this help?
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xf ... ox_in_XFCE
http://openbox.org/wiki/Help:XFCE/Openbox
[not tested here, use as-is]

[hushpuppy]

As soon as I can figure out how to use openbox instead of xfwm for xfce, I will.

will this help?
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xf ... ox_in_XFCE
http://openbox.org/wiki/Help:XFCE/Openbox
[not tested here, use as-is]

I don't have time to try it right now, but it looks good, thank you. There's still some research to be done since I expected to use update-alternatives to control things.

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# update-alternatives --display lightdm-greeter
lightdm-greeter - manual mode
  link currently points to /usr/share/xgreeters/lightdm-razor-greeter.desktop
/usr/share/xgreeters/lightdm-gtk-greeter.desktop - priority 60
/usr/share/xgreeters/lightdm-razor-greeter.desktop - priority 60
Current 'best' version is '/usr/share/xgreeters/lightdm-gtk-greeter.desktop'

# update-alternatives --display x-window-manager
x-window-manager - auto mode
  link currently points to /usr/bin/openbox
/usr/bin/openbox - priority 90
  slave x-window-manager.1.gz: /usr/share/man/man1/openbox.1.gz
/usr/bin/xfwm4 - priority 60
  slave x-window-manager.1.gz: /usr/share/man/man1/xfwm4.1.gz
Current 'best' version is '/usr/bin/openbox'.

# update-alternatives --display x-session-manager
x-session-manager - auto mode
  link currently points to /usr/bin/razor-session
/usr/bin/openbox-session - priority 40
  slave x-session-manager.1.gz: /usr/share/man/man1/openbox-session.1.gz
/usr/bin/razor-session - priority 50
  slave x-session-manager.1.gz: /usr/share/man/man1/razor-session.1.gz
/usr/bin/xfce4-session - priority 40
  slave x-session-manager.1.gz: /usr/share/man/man1/xfce4-session.1.gz
Current 'best' version is '/usr/bin/razor-session'.

Anyway, if I can't figure it out, I'll create a new topic and not hijack this one. And when I've got it all working, I'll make a howto post covering installing razor, openbox, and building and installing 3rd party apps for razor/qt.

I'm showing off my best talent again: Busting into a thread wherein grownups are talking. But I love these philosophical discussions. When I grow up I wanna be just like you guys!

I think it's safe to say zerozero and I have different philosophies. I prefer to keep it as simple as possible; zerozero is more adventurous than I am. But, if zerozero says it's safe, I'll trust him even if I don't follow his example.

My personal view: How could anything that leaves you with a bootable & reasonably stable system possibly be a bad idea?

So, an app you want isn't in the repos. What do you do? a) ask. b) download the source and build it yourself. c) google "ubuntu app" and download it. d) google "rpm app" and use alien. e) google "deb app", modify /etc/apt/sources.list, add the repo, and use apt.

Of course, each could leave you with a working system, but some options are safer than others. By all means tinker, back-up regularly, and have fun, but be careful! Ubuntu != SolydXK just as KDE != XFCE and vi > emacs. I'd also recommend keeping a journal, document your tinkering, write your own HOWTOs when you get something new to work (for your own future reference, and because you never know if it will help someone else). Remember you can do # history -w [filename] to save a history of all the commands you've run, and # history -r [filename] to reload them later. Tinker logically, not recklessly

[StratosJL]

Thanks, works fine!