KDE5

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MAYBL8
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Re: KDE5

Postby MAYBL8 » 18 Sep 2015 11:42

I'm running Debian Testing obviously. That is why I have KDE 5 running.
Anyway I notice that there are KDE5 packages being updated and plasma packages being updated.
Is just the Debian maintainers doing this or do these come from KDE developers?
I was just wondering if other distros that are running KDE 5 in there distros getting these package updates also?


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belze
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Re: KDE5

Postby belze » 18 Sep 2015 15:17

kde devs publish their works via source packages. Distro packagers pick kde sources and build packages for their distro.
Until not so long ago ubuntu and debian had a very different idea on how kde should be packaged and installed. Debian had not so many people working on it and the lack of men power slowed their work. The path to KDE4>plasma5 brings an opportunity to join forces in packaging stuff and their teams are now working on the same git repository and then apply patches and build their own packages. I read some time ago all of this in some mailing list (i can't find any links at the moment). The build process had a huge speed up due of this.
Other distros have their own path, and depending on the man power and the complexity of patch sets their packages reach their repos sooner or later.

Some kde devs are distro maintainers too, but this is not mandatory of course. Does this answer to your question?
Of course i'm not a developer nor a packer, and i can miss some important information :)
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MAYBL8
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Re: KDE5

Postby MAYBL8 » 18 Sep 2015 15:42

This all sounds good.
Thanks for the info.
A while back in this distro we had a relationship with a person at Siduction (I think his name was Santa) that was pushing out KDE updates quicker than Debian Testing was doing it and we were getting the updates quick.
That was when we were a Debian Testing based distro.


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belze
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Re: KDE5

Postby belze » 18 Sep 2015 15:56

At that time i was mainly a siduction user(i still use it great distro). Santa's work and towo's kernels was and still are great. Santa is doing alla his work greatly but i like the recent switch in debian-kde workflow more.
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kurotsugi
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Re: KDE5

Postby kurotsugi » 18 Sep 2015 22:20

every distro have different strategy on how will they migrate to plasma 5. debian decided to broke KDE while siduction prefer to keep it alive. it's a quite massive work but somehow they managed to do it. using siduction's plasma should be possible since testing and sid are actually one distro branch. however, you'll need to have sid repo enabled and you have to stick with kdenext repo forever. we'll also need to be extra carefull with repo management and system updates.

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MAYBL8
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Re: KDE5

Postby MAYBL8 » 19 Sep 2015 14:55

kurotsugi,
I know I am running Testing but is Siductions KDE any more stable than Debian's Testing KDE?
I don't know if this questions even makes sense but I thought about it after I read your post.
Thanks
Dan


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Ghstryder
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Re: KDE5

Postby Ghstryder » 19 Sep 2015 16:23

My go-to machine (this one) runs siduction.

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System:    Host: p690 Kernel: 4.2.0-towo.1-siduction-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.2.1)
           Desktop: KDE Plasma 5 (Qt 5.4.2) Distro: siduction 14.1.0 Indian Summer - kde - (201411230337)
Machine:   System: Dell product: Precision WorkStation 690
           Mobo: Dell model: 0MY171 v: A01 Bios: Dell v: A08 date: 04/25/2008
CPU(s):    2 Quad core Intel Xeon E5345s (-HT-MCP-SMP-) cache: 8192 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 37257
           clock speeds: max: 2333 MHz 1: 2000 MHz 2: 2000 MHz 3: 2000 MHz 4: 2000 MHz 5: 2000 MHz 6: 2000 MHz
           7: 2000 MHz 8: 2000 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA GF108 [GeForce GT 430] bus-ID: 07:00.0
           Display Server: X.Org 1.17.2 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: fbdev,vesa) Resolution: 1680x1050@59.95hz
           GLX Renderer: Gallium 0.4 on NVC1 GLX Version: 3.0 Mesa 10.6.3 Direct Rendering: Yes
Network:   Card: Broadcom NetXtreme BCM5752 Gigabit Ethernet PCI Express driver: tg3 v: 3.137 bus-ID: 0b:00.0
           IF: eth0 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 1128.3GB (44.9% used) ID-1: model: ST3250820NS
           ID-2: model: ST3750640NS ID-3: model: SAMSUNG_SSD_830
Info:      Processes: 243 Uptime: 3:05 Memory: 1865.5/16051.6MB Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 4.9.3
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.421) inxi: 2.2.28
In many years now I have never been without it for more than a day, generally something self-inflicted. That is pretty stable, to my way of thinking. However, it isn't without a fair amount of effort (reading).

Right now, with Plasma 5 and the GCC Transitions - uh... sure.

Code: Select all

335 upgraded, 90 newly installed, 60 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
Need to get 442 MB of archives.
After this operation, 116 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Abort.
Click yes there and I would be in for an adventure. Now, some of that is installable via other methods, but I've found out the hard way that the most powerful weapon in the arsenal is nothing other than patience. Sid can lure you into complacency and then pull the rug out. It is very stable when things are quiet. The rest of the time it reminds you why it is labelled "unstable".

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Re: KDE5

Postby kurotsugi » 19 Sep 2015 22:27

in normal situation, where bugs and breakages are minimized as low as possible, no. the plasma5 is a unique situation since the maintainer decided to deliberately broke it. I'd say in normal situation, testing > kdenext > sid.

the difference between debian's plasma team and kdenext is...that...it's a one man team. he's not on debian so he's free from debian's "democratic" rule, which means, he can work as he pleased. in most cases it means....kdenext maintainer will make sure that your plasma will works for you. however, using kdenext also means that you're on sid. plasma will works but the rest of things will broke quite often. it's a hard choice for plasma lover :lol:

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Re: KDE5

Postby MAYBL8 » 20 Sep 2015 13:49

kurotsugi,
If I remember correctly when we were using Santa we had SolydK set up to just use the kdenext part of sid so we didn't get all of sid. Can that still be done?
If I understand you correctly , you are saying Debian testing release of KDE5 will be more stable when it is released than when kdenext (sid) releases KDE5 packages?
If I switched to kdenext for just KDE5 (if that is possible) would I want to remove all of KDE 5 and plasma before doing so?
It might be a big project to take on to do that. There is a lot of packages involved.
I will probably stick with Testing and maybe set up a virtualbox to try it out.
I will go do some sid reading and see what I have to do to use kdenext.
Thanks for your help and knowledge.


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Re: KDE5

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 20 Sep 2015 14:17

Santa built the KDE packages especially for SolydXK. There was no relation with the Sid repository whatsoever. This was needed because of the difference in related packages. I guess that today, just like then, there is a reasonable risk on breakage when using the Sid packages in SolydXK. If it's not during the installation things might break later on when Debian or SolydXK packages get updated.


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MAYBL8
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Re: KDE5

Postby MAYBL8 » 20 Sep 2015 14:49

That is what I thought. Thanks for the clarification Schoelje.


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Re: KDE5

Postby kurotsugi » 20 Sep 2015 15:36

1. solydxk's kdenext is different with siduction's one as schoelje explained above. anyone can create kdenext-like stuff on top of debian testing but the amount of work, time, and knowledge are massive.
2. after the transition is over. yes. testing's plasma 5 tends to more stable than kdenext. that's because kdenext stressed more on getting the newest plasma provided from source code. santa make sure the bug isn't a critical one but you'll see one or two minor bug.
3. the safest route would be using siduction's iso. else, we could temporary move into sid, follow santa's guide to use kdenext, then use apt pinning to block packages from sid. the good news is that sid is actually quite stable now. the bad news...apt pinning is a pain. kdenext still depends on debian's plasma component so if you block sid, sometimes kdenext will broke and you need to fix the issue by hand.

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MAYBL8
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Re: KDE5

Postby MAYBL8 » 20 Sep 2015 15:55

All of that is probably not worth the trouble.
Being patient and just let Debian Testing work out the issues is probably the best answer.
So kdenext might have an update a little sooner but at what cost. Not worth it probably if you want a somewhat working system.
I always keep a backup DE available if one breaks during testing.
Backups are good to keep also.
I don't mind my system breaking occasionally. I like learning how things work and when things break if forces me to do some extra learning.
Overall KDE 5 looks like is going to be good when finished. I don't know what this Wayland thing is I keep hearing people talk about but it must be better for the developers.


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Re: KDE5

Postby SolydForEver » 04 Oct 2015 13:53

I'm running KDE 5 on the EE version of SolydK.
This is the output of the inxi command:

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inxi -Fxz
Resuming in non X mode: glxinfo not found. For package install advice run: inxi --recommends
System:    Host: solydxk Kernel: 4.2.0-1-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 4.9.3) Desktop: KDE Plasma 5 (Qt 5.4.2)
           Distro: SolydXK 9 solydxk
Machine:   System: innotek product: VirtualBox v: 1.2
           Mobo: Oracle model: VirtualBox v: 1.2 Bios: innotek v: VirtualBox date: 12/01/2006
CPU:       Hexa core AMD FX-8350 Eight-Core (-MCP-) cache: 12288 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 sse4a ssse3) bmips: 51539
           clock speeds: max: 4294 MHz 1: 4294 MHz 2: 4294 MHz 3: 4294 MHz 4: 4294 MHz 5: 4294 MHz 6: 4294 MHz
Graphics:  Card: InnoTek Systemberatung VirtualBox Graphics Adapter bus-ID: 00:02.0
           Display Server: X.org 1.17.2 drivers: vboxvideo (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           tty size: 202x35 Advanced Data: N/A for root
Audio:     Card Intel 82801AA AC'97 Audio Controller driver: snd_intel8x0 ports: d100 d200 bus-ID: 00:05.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.2.0-1-amd64
Network:   Card-1: Intel 82540EM Gigabit Ethernet Controller
           driver: e1000 v: 7.3.21-k8-NAPI port: d010 bus-ID: 00:03.0
           IF: enp0s3 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
           Card-2: Intel 82540EM Gigabit Ethernet Controller
           driver: e1000 v: 7.3.21-k8-NAPI port: d240 bus-ID: 00:08.0
           IF: enp0s8 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 26.8GB (47.7% used) ID-1: /dev/sda model: VBOX_HARDDISK size: 26.8GB temp: 0C
Partition: ID-1: / size: 13G used: 7.6G (66%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1
           ID-2: /home size: 8.3G used: 535M (7%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda3
           ID-3: swap-1 size: 4.29GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda2
Sensors:   None detected - is lm-sensors installed and configured?
Info:      Processes: 190 Uptime: 39 min Memory: 1272.7/7988.0MB Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: N/A
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.421) inxi: 2.2.28
I'm using this OS in a virtual machine and it is possible that several strange behaviors are caused by this, but I have my doubt about that. Before updating KDE4 to KDE5 things all ran well.
I then:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get purge kde*
sudo apt-get autoremove
sudo apt-get kde-full
Assuming this is the correct way of doing things.
I rebooted into a whole new (looking) OS, soon to find out things were not that great.
Although I use KDE 5.4.2 it is still buggy as hell. I would expect to see this on 5.0 but starting 5.1, or maybe even 5.2, things have to be rock-stable. It is not. In the 45 minutes or so I have now been logged-in I have seen the crash-screen more times than in my entire life in the Linux world, which is almost 8 years.
Terminal crashes, system-settings crashes, it is a disaster. Scrolling in a terminal on top of Firefox makes the website I am seeing in Firefox scroll as well.
Scrolling in system-settings (made the window small on purpose) makes me scroll through all open applications with buttons on the lower panel.

Some months ago I installed Kubuntu in a VM and saw the same behavior, so yes it can be the VM causing this, however I still doubt that.
I honestly think KDE5 should never have been released so early. They should have taken out the errors first, then release a 5.0 version which people can use and test, report crashes so 5.1 would be the stable version. All other releases after that only have new features, not bug-fixes.
Apart from KDE5, KDE4 also still has errors which probably will never be dealt with since they are working hard on 5. I just noticed, one error in 4 has been copied to 5 so I wonder if this one will ever be fixed: dragging a folder in Dolphin from the right pane to the left one to make it a favorite still doesn't work.

Call me negative, call me whatever you want, I simply hate things like this. Yes, I know, it is all for free and I should be glad they do all this work and I am, believe me, but why not wait with the initial release until you have a stable product? So we have to wait longer, so what? KDE4 is still amazing, to be honest it looks better than 5 which resembles to Windows 10 too much. (looking at the used icons) Now KDE gets a bad name, I can't believe the devs planned this to happen.

What are your experiences? Am I the only one seeing this, is it the VM, or are you guys also seeing crash screens, and other abnormalities on a regular basis?

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MAYBL8
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Re: KDE5

Postby MAYBL8 » 04 Oct 2015 14:20

Solydforever,
The only thing I can tell you is you are in Debain Testing. The packages are not complete yet. That is why it is in testing.
When KDE 5 gets complete and Debian gives it its blessing it will be all working just like KDE4 does now.
It will probably be working at some point in testing and then released to stable. I don't know what that schedule is. It is possibly listed somewhere. I would say just be patient and enjoy the testing process.
Thanks
Dan


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Re: KDE5

Postby SolydForEver » 04 Oct 2015 14:39

You are talking about Debian testing. I know it is the basis for SolydXK EE. But I am talking about KDE5. The KDE guys (and girls) should never have started releasing it till it was much more stable. Now, for over a year already there are unstable OS's because people want KDE5 since they know it exist. I stick to my opinion: they released it way too early.

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Zill
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Re: KDE5

Postby Zill » 04 Oct 2015 15:40

SolydForEver wrote:... but why not wait with the initial release until you have a stable product? So we have to wait longer, so what? KDE4 is still amazing, to be honest it looks better than 5...
... and this is exactly how it works with SolydXK!

The main edition of SolydK uses KDE4, which is (apparently!) as solid as they come. Users who want a system that "just works" can therefore rely on SolydK to get real work done. In a couple of years it will then be possible to upgrade SolydXK which will then include KDE5 as this will be part of the new Debian Stable (stretch). This release will, hopefully, be just as reliable as the current one.

You seem to be impatient to install KDE5 even though this is not currently available in Debian Stable and then seem surprised when you run SolydK EE with a version from unstable or testing that breaks!

If KDE4 works for you, why try to "fix" it - do you really need more bells and whistles?

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Ghstryder
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Re: KDE5

Postby Ghstryder » 04 Oct 2015 17:22

It worked just fine when I made the post earlier in this thread and it is working just as well today. I use Plasma 5 with the kdenext repo on my main machine. Not only is it stable, but this is also Sid - I saw over 1000 changes in September alone due to the GCC transition and ongoing work in KDE. It survived every bit of that just fine. It wasn't painless, to be sure. There is a reason these releases are named Unstable or Testing.

Plasma 5 works - it may not work for your case, and your opinion is certainly valid. I doubt you are reaching many KDE Devs here, you might as well open your front door and shout to the wind. In my opinion, this has been a far easier transition than from KDE 3 to KDE 4.

What are you referring to as a "Favorite" in Dolphin?

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Re: KDE5

Postby SolydForEver » 04 Oct 2015 17:34

Ghstryder wrote:It worked just fine when I made the post earlier in this thread and it is working just as well today. I use Plasma 5 with the kdenext repo on my main machine. Not only is it stable, but this is also Sid - I saw over 1000 changes in September alone due to the GCC transition and ongoing work in KDE. It survived every bit of that just fine. It wasn't painless, to be sure. There is a reason these releases are named Unstable or Testing.

Plasma 5 works - it may not work for your case, and your opinion is certainly valid. I doubt you are reaching many KDE Devs here, you might as well open your front door and shout to the wind. In my opinion, this has been a far easier transition than from KDE 3 to KDE 4.

What are you referring to as a "Favorite" in Dolphin?
Favorite in Dolphin? Sorry, I should have used the name Places. I was talking about the icons in the Places pane from where you can open disks and folders very easily.

What is this kdenext repo you are talking about? Is there another repo I should use to make it (more) stable?
I realize it is testing, testing for debian. But how KDE itself? They are at release 5.4.2 already and still many things crash, or is that all caused by the underlying distro? I don't know cause I have no idea how this works.

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Re: KDE5

Postby Ghstryder » 04 Oct 2015 18:01

Ah, the Places Panel. I can drag a folder from the Workspace to the Places Panel just fine. I can also right click and select "Add to Places".

The kdenext repo requires Sid, and it's use is contentious even there. I would never, ever, steer anyone toward the setup I am using. Please understand that I did not click my way to this. I have a *lot* of hours invested, and that is on top of having run some flavor of Sid on a daily basis for well over a decade. I even hesitated posting what I did. Anything you did in that regard would certainly take you far beyond the point where you can expect support from a Dev. User support is always there, of course.

The following is all just my opinion - you can't even determine if your issues are due to a KDE problem or the VM install. Changing distros or repos is not a magic bullet, and will probably only lead to more frustration. Understand that KDE works - that it was released early won't get any argument, including from some KDE Devs. Start working through your issues. If you have a lot of issues, you might consider a fresh install of your VM or devote a partition and test it on a physical install.


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