Read the very fine manual!

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fleabus
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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby fleabus » 01 Aug 2014 09:42

ilu wrote:I decided against the business edition because it was bloated with software I did not need and because "periodic" security updates where not secure enough for my paranoia. It seems that I based that decision on wrong premisses.
You are correct. Yes, definitely a communication problem. I understand what you're saying... perhaps "Home" indeed doesn't fit for a Testing-based distro. Solyd is young yet. I have faith that these things will be worked out in time. They get worked out because folks bring them up.

IMO You should definitely be running the Stable-based Business Edition. Re security updates, Maybe "periodic" is the wrong word. Thanks to Grizzler we get them as soon as Debian does, hot off the grill.

Easy enough to remove software you don't want. I think actually the BO (Back Office) version has the most bloat/unneeded software as regards home users. But now there is both an Xfce and a KDE Business Edition (BE), without all that personnel management software that comes with BO..

mikebravo
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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby mikebravo » 03 Aug 2014 22:01

I am here to admit my addiction. I am a distro hopper and I want to stop. I am one of woodman's 'non technical users' and I have been searching for a bullet proof Linux. Haven't found one yet. I think that part of the problem is that most distros are either unabashedly techie or else they try to be all things to all people. In the latter case the result are a schizophrenic distribution and developer burnout. I thought that SolydXK had done something to address the schizophrenia by dividing the product into Business and Home editions. Alas, they did not go far enough and offer a Linux for Dummies edition. Lets face it, there are a lot of users out there who do not need to tweek Linux any more than they need to tweek Windows yet most distributions insist on offering a polithera of options equivalent to putting a shortcut to the registry on the Windows desktop with a note to 'play around here, it might be fun'.

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Zill
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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Zill » 03 Aug 2014 22:19

mikebravo wrote:I am here to admit my addiction. I am a distro hopper and I want to stop. I am one of woodman's 'non technical users' and I have been searching for a bullet proof Linux...
...I thought that SolydXK had done something to address the schizophrenia by dividing the product into Business and Home editions. Alas, they did not go far enough and offer a Linux for Dummies edition...
How about something like Instant WebKiosk? It looks fairly bullet proof to me. ;-)

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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby mikebravo » 03 Aug 2014 23:03

Thanks Zill. I went to take a look. That could be useful.

Fargo
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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Fargo » 04 Aug 2014 23:02

Dang- I just wrote up a well though out plan for solutions to some of these issues and I lost them all when I clicked on Submit. Apparently the forum timed out. When I logged back in my entire post was gone. I had almost 2 hours of thought in to that post.

I don't have time now to remember it all or retype it all, but the short version is this:

We have a couple problems:

Label issues are the first: 1) People don't realize Home Edition is rolling and less stable than the Business Edition. 2) People don't realize the Business Edition could be used for home uses.

The solution here is two fold.
1) Better descriptions are required of each edition.
2) We made need to consider changing the names. SolydXK Home may need to be called Rolling Edition (Or some other name that implies continuity. Maybe the Infinity Edition) SolydXK Business may simply need to be called the Stable Release or Stable Edition. Yeah its boring and it may not show up in a web search for 'Linux business', but its clear what the OS is and that its the more stable release. But it also doesn't pigeon hole it into a business only distro as many seem to think it is.

The other issue is some items in the Update Manager:

I know there is some disappointment with the UPs and breakage problems with the last UP, but I also think that if the Rolling Edition users realize that a rolling release requires more maintenance, they will be more understanding when these things happen. No rolling release can be as stable as a fixed and stable release. Its just the nature of the beast. So addressing the nature of each release and possibly changing the names of the releases should help this matter.

Also, it seems to me we have 2 different users and expectations of the Update Manager. Users of the Stable Edition just want to click update, see a status bar and be done. Users of the Rolling Edition want/need to see all the output and know what is happening.

Here are some of my thoughts on that solution.

For the rolling release:
After refreshing and showing the output, the UM should stop at the info screen for user input. The info screen should detail what is required to update via UM. Terminal instructions should not be included in the info screen. If you are a terminal user, you are advanced enough to know where the forum is and how to find the directions you need there. Including terminal instructions in the UM only adds to clutter and distracts from the instructions required by the UM user. Providing clear instructions in the info screen should help the user to make a safe install. Maybe include a button at the bottom of the info screen to continue so the user is sure to read the info.

For the Stable release I would make a step by step UM.
After clicking the Update Manager icon, while the Update Manager is "Gathering Information", just show a status bar instead of all the packages.
1) Step one - After info is gathered the UM will show the "Information" screen and provide any important information or possible user intervention that may be required. At the bottom of the screen have a button for "Next Step". Clicking this button will take you to the "Packages to be installed" screen.

2) Step two - At 'Packages' screen the user can view packages they will be installing. The bottom of the screen gives the options to "Install Now" or "Exit - No Change".

Using this step by step install would be a simple 2 step procedure after clicking on the UM icon. It also allows the user to view the packages they are installing in case something does break the system. You could leave the tabs at the top of the page for direct access or you could make it a simple step by step gui without the tabs. However, I would be sure to include an "Advanced Options" button to let the user access the current Update Manage gui for preference options and things that a more advanced user will want to use.

The step by step update manager might work for the rolling release as well, but it would require more steps and they could vary from release to release if the user is required to open a terminal for scripts or something. But forcing a step by step update might actually be beneficial as it will force the user to read everything and open any terminals or run any scripts that are necessary.

Sorry if this is layed out poorly. Like I said, my well planned out version was lost.

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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 05 Aug 2014 09:38

Fargo, you've been quite busy!

Thank you very much for your feedback, I really appreciate that.

The team is discussing your naming suggestion, and other subjects concerning SolydXK that were mentioned in this post, and beyond: http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?p=41292#p41292

Your suggestions about the UM are very valid, but changes will take a long time as long as I'm the only one working on that project.
It'll have to change, but bit by bit.


SolydXK needs you!
Development | Testing | Translations

Fargo
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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Fargo » 05 Aug 2014 14:10

Schoelje wrote:Fargo, you've been quite busy!

Thank you very much for your feedback, I really appreciate that.

The team is discussing your naming suggestion, and other subjects concerning SolydXK that were mentioned in this post, and beyond: http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?p=41292#p41292

Your suggestions about the UM are very valid, but changes will take a long time as long as I'm the only one working on that project.
It'll have to change, but bit by bit.
Your welcome. I just wish I could offer more help/time to the project.

I'll have to check out that other thread. I think I started reading part of it when it started, but I haven't kept up. None of the changes I mentioned will be easy. I wouldn't expect the Update Manager to change overnight. I don't think it needs to either. Its not so bad that it can't work well until a new model is designed.

As time consuming as rewriting the Update Manager is, I think in some ways it is an easier job than changing the name. Name changes always have in impact on the perception of the distro. Sometimes its a great thing, sometimes not so much. In the case of SolydXK's sub-names (HE & BE) I think it could be a very good thing to add clarity to their mission. The key will be finding the right name.

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ilu
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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby ilu » 11 Aug 2014 13:25

To be honest: I would have chosen the rolling distribution anyway - secretly I want to be a geek :roll: .... If I could be young again :(
But that doesn't mean others should walk into the same trap. It took me some time to come back to this thread but I hope I can still help.

1. Unstable Edition
I would definitely remove the name "Home" from this one. Possible names could be "Techie" "Advanced" or "Rolling". And change the description:
Latest Software Updates
*Based on Debian Testing but still* Stable and Secure
Roling install ("Install Once" tends to mislead Newbies)
Cutting edge System and Security Updates
All you need out of the box
Use this if you are willing to invest some time into the finer workings of Linux

2. Stable Edition
I would rename the BE something like Home/Business Edition (HBE) and change the description:
Supports all home needs and main Business Processes
Focus on Stability and Security
Three Year Support
Stable base with *All the necessary* Security Updates
All you need out of the box
Use this if you are coming from MS Windows or rely on the system in a business environment!

3. Update Manager
It would help immensly if the UM would start with a big window saying: Before clicking ok, GO HERE FIRST: <exact thread URL with summary of known problems - and please don't have several threads>. I know I could think of that myself and hope I will do in the future but a reminder would not harm anyone. Apart from that any edition should have an easy access to debugging information (the detailed window) but maybe that could be somehow hidden for the HBE.

4. Regarding some opinions in this thread that Linux should remain something for techies
Several people here are working as business consultants and need a non-windows system to recommend to their non-techy customers. As far as I understood Solyd (at least BE) is aiming at being that. I don't think I need to elaborate why nobody can honestly recommend Windows for anyone who is remotely interested in privacy, let alone those who are legally required to keep customer/client data confidential - which is every business under european pricacy laws but especially lawyers, accountants, schools, priests and medical practitioners.

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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Fargo » 11 Aug 2014 18:52

[quote="ilu"]

...
2. Stable Edition
I would rename the BE something like Home/Business Edition (HBE) and change the description:
Supports all home needs and main Business Processes
Focus on Stability and Security
Three Year Support
Stable base with *All the necessary* Security Updates
All you need out of the box
Use this if you are coming from MS Windows or rely on the system in a business environment!
...
[
/quote]

Lots of good points in ilu's post. I just wanted to put a couple other names out there.

1) I have often seen the initials SOHO used to designate Small Office/Home Office. http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/S/SOHO.html I can't say I'm particularily fond of the a 4 letter designation, but for those who are small office/home office people, it should be a pretty recognizable term. It also seems to be the most likely user of the SolydXK Business Editions. My biggest concern about calling it the SOHO edition would be if it doesn't go far enough to make it clear that its also suitable for pure home use.

2) Another option I would put forth is simply calling it Stable Edition or SolydXK SE. The current home edition could then easily be called the Rolling Edition or SolydXK RE. These terminalogies would be immediately clear to linux users and if we provide a clear description on the home page, others would also better understand each edition.

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fleabus
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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby fleabus » 11 Aug 2014 19:09

Fargo wrote:2) Another option I would put forth is simply calling it Stable Edition or SolydXK SE. The current home edition could then easily be called the Rolling Edition or SolydXK RE. These terminalogies would be immediately clear to linux users and if we provide a clear description on the home page, others would also better understand each edition.
Yes. I like the sound of that. IMO You nailed it that time Fargo. I think I'd have said the same, had I but thought of it. Couldn't have said it better. ;)

My 2c... :mrgreen:

Deleted User 2763

Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 11 Aug 2014 19:45

I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the naming conventions.
Naming something "stable" implies everything else as "unstable" to those that aren't familiar with the Debian naming convention. Even in Debian "unstable" is stable.
Since I assume, SolydXK is going after new converts (every other use, names are just preaching to the choir), I'd opt on a naming convention like #! (muppets) but not muppets and say that SolydXK Home edition is built on Debian Wheezy, Jessie, etc.. and just drop the notion of stable and testing.
-Hinto

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fleabus
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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby fleabus » 11 Aug 2014 20:08

hinto wrote:Naming something "stable" implies everything else as "unstable" ..... say that SolydXK Home edition is built on Debian Whezzy, Jessie, etc.. and just drop the notion of stable and testing.
You've got a point there. I didn't think of that either... :)

I'm gonna shut up now.. I'm like the guy at the side of the ping-pong table with his head turning back and forth, back and forth... :lol:

Deleted User 2763

Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 11 Aug 2014 20:23

^lol.
I'm the guy trying to read the rule book ;)

-Hinto (whos' never built a distro)

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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Rocky » 12 Aug 2014 18:10

hinto wrote:Since I assume, SolydXK is going after new converts (every other use, names are just preaching to the choir), I'd opt on a naming convention like #! (muppets) but not muppets and say that SolydXK Home edition is built on Debian Wheezy, Jessie, etc.. and just drop the notion of stable and testing.
-Hinto
But what happens when Jessie becomes the new stable ( sometime in 2015?)? There could be a lot of confusion when the new testing gets its new codename.

I agree that the term "stable" in Debian is ambiguous i.e it really means unchanging rather than the normal everyday meaning of the word. However I still think Stable and Testing are more descriptive than a codename.
Fargo wrote: 2) Another option I would put forth is simply calling it Stable Edition or SolydXK SE. The current home edition could then easily be called the Rolling Edition or SolydXK RE. These terminalogies would be immediately clear to linux users and if we provide a clear description on the home page, others would also better understand each edition.
I think Fargos suggestion has a lot of merit

-Rocky
"All that glisters is not gold" - Shakespeare "The Merchant of Venice"

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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 12 Aug 2014 18:19

It doesn't matter when Jessie becomes the new stable.
SolydXK would just make another release based on which ever the named Debian is just like say, Mint does when it's based on a new Ubuntu.

If you don't want to roll (or semi-roll) drop the "stable", "testing", "unstable" usages. They are all rolling.
SID the always the same and interchangeable with "unstable"

This would anchor SolydXK to point(named) releases.

Full disclaimer: I roll on SID (that's just how I roll). And I'll re-iterate that the use of the word "stable" in a release, to the real world (non technical) implies everything else is unstable. (or alpha or beta).

-Hinto

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Re: Read the very fine manual!

Postby _q_ » 13 Aug 2014 06:40

if the concern is to make it understandable by non-tech's, why not go with the "Stable" monicker as is and call the current Home Edition something like "Cutting Edge" or even "Enthusiast Edition".

i think this would make it clear that while both are quality and reliable, one will take a more proactive user than the other.

sorta like most are aware a "performance" car spends more time in the shop, yet it isnt a lemon.

SolydXK is such a delicious flavor of Debian!


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