Is XFCE on it's last legs?

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Orbmiser
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Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Orbmiser » 24 Sep 2014 17:26

Discussions about why Debian chose to go back to Gnome over Xfce and Mate on the rise over Xfce.

Dead Desktop Walking | LINUX Unplugged 59 Starting at 56:10

http://youtu.be/Ve66L-CF33Y?t=56m12s
(Didn't use the embed youtube tags as doesn't allow time position =56m12s in embed)

But they brought up some points about Xfce lack of development,Lack of developers and funding to keep up to date,etc... Since one of the Main flavors of SolydXK thought to share their take and concerns on the issue.

http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/debian-s ... -xfce.html
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grizzler
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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby grizzler » 24 Sep 2014 18:48

The apparent lack of development has been raised before on the Xfce forum. The conclusion there seems to be that while development is slow, it is still ongoing.

https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=8945
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Rocky
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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Rocky » 24 Sep 2014 18:51

Not sure I would be influenced too much by Linux Unplugged but the issue of Debian reverting to Gnome as default DE would indeed raise questions to be considered. What are XFCE alternatives ? MATE ? LXQT ? Gnome 3.10 + ?

I like XFCE - simple, intuitive, reasonably fast.
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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Zill » 24 Sep 2014 19:16

Rocky wrote:...I like XFCE - simple, intuitive, reasonably fast.
+1
Same here - XFCE does exactly what I want and, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

These kind of pointless "discussions" trying to compare the pros and cons of different DEs, WM's and distros have gone on as long as FOSS has existed. The great beauty of GNU/Linux is that we have loads of choice and are free to choose what works for us as individuals and we never get forced to use the latest blingy bloatware from commercial corporations. :-)

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby drc » 24 Sep 2014 20:51

As much I love XFCE, I've been wondering the same thing lately.

4.10 is getting old, 4.11 (the development version of XFCE) is a mess and 4.12 is no nearer to release than it was a year ago. Not to mention (or maybe it should be mentioned, because this is probably the cause of a large number of XFCE's developmental slowness) is the move from GTK2 to GTK3.

I know that mentioning another distro's problems is bad form, but look at what Xubuntu has been going thru the past 2 or 3 cycles (I know part of it is Canonical's changes, and they're trying to be part GTK2 and part GTK3, but still....)

As much as I liked KDE3, I disliked KDE4 the same amount. But I have been seriously considering switching to KDE: 1) My current laptop is 5 or 6 years old and probably won't last much longer, so new hardware should take care of "heaviness" of KDE, 2) KDE5 is on the horizon (maybe I'll like it), 3) XFCE will probably still be in the throes of the GTK transistion (with all it's problems).

Oh well, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I'm never happy with what I've got :)

EDIT: Wow, 64bit SolydK is approaching 2gig :(

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Fargo » 24 Sep 2014 21:43

Interesting, I saw an article some time back that Debian was going to have Gnome available in its repos, but I thought XCFE was still the default. I wonder whey they would chose Gnome over KDE. Especially with all the issues of GTK3. Old habits die hard I guess.

I don't think think this is the end of XFCE. I think you don't see much development because they feel it is a mature DE. Why keep adding bells and whistles. On the other hand, if XFCE is dying, then LXQt could become a major player very fast. Especially if they have a solid stable release ready to go when the news hits.

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Orbmiser » 24 Sep 2014 21:47

drc: "Wow, 64bit SolydK is approaching 2gig :("

Seems most if not all distro base LiveCD has climbed in size over last couple of years.
Much has to do with having many apps available on the CD.

Don't get all the KDE hate or Bloat talk tho. As chimes in much lighter than Unity or Cinnamon and Gnome for that matter on my setup. But I don't hear Bloat term used with those DE's and wonder why.

Mine chimes in at 420mb to desktop with a simple Conky script,yaWP weather app running in tray and Rainlendar Calendar on desktop. Was chiming in under 400 around 390mb without the rainlendar app running on desktop.

Running Smooth,Snappy on older dual core 4Gb of ram and problem free with the default open driver for my 4 year old Ati 4350 on dual 22" displays. Change up my icons and minimize clutter on the panels and ignore the Kitchen sink confusing array of settings except when I need one to adjust something. Disable semantic search and desktop effects I don't need.

And all set to go. The power of Krunner & Dolphin and other KDE apps had me using them when I wasn't a KDE user. Finally gave in and learned to embrace the flexibility,features that KDE has to offer. I would still be running it on a 2gb system and know it would run great.

A lot of changes coming down the pike for KDE 5 which may even make it a better and less Bloated? Simplified Desktop.
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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby jsalpha2 » 25 Sep 2014 00:37

As one of the biggest Xfce fans out there I would be devastated if it went away. I have taken a quick look at Mate and Cinnamon, Openbox and even Trinity, but they just don't feel right. There are a few things about KDE that I don't like, (like nepomuk) or something. (I don't remember what it is or what it did to make me dislike it), but if I spent enough time learning it's ways I guess it would be in second place. :(

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Fargo » 25 Sep 2014 02:37

I've been a KDe user for years and only recently started using XFCE. Although I really like it, there are too many KDE programs that I really like (Dolphin, K3B, Digikam, Okular etc) So I stick with KDE. However, I am excited about LXQT and Qt5. With Kwin and KDE becoming more modular, I am excited about the pieces that LxQT will be able to use without becoming a bloated desktop. I have high hopes that in the future LXQt can be the light and simple desktop but still offer kwin and the KDE programs I like. If that happens LXQt will become my DE of choice. I just want simple, clean and reliable.

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Snap » 26 Sep 2014 11:00

And that's why I dream of SolydLK. I mean SolydK, as usual, and SolydL having LXQt replacing Xfce. This would make the editions way more coherent based mostly in the Qt toolkit. Common apps and tools in the different editions, Getting rid of the GTK3 mess, etc... As they are now, SolydX and SolydK are quite different beasts. This other way, they will be more like a full featured edition and a light weight one. More or less two versions of more or less the same thing.

Currently Razor-Qt is a great rock solid light weight alternative to KDE for those like me favoring Qt apps over GTK when possible, but sadly RQt has a dead end. Hope LXQt comes out as good as RQt is now. My 2 cents.
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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Fargo » 26 Sep 2014 14:25

Snap wrote:And that's why I dream of SolydLK. I mean SolydK, as usual, and SolydL having LXQt replacing Xfce. This would make the editions way more coherent based mostly in the Qt toolkit. Common apps and tools in the different editions, Getting rid of the GTK3 mess, etc... As they are now, SolydX and SolydK are quite different beasts. This other way, they will be more like a full featured edition and a light weight one. More or less two versions of more or less the same thing.

Currently Razor-Qt is a great rock solid light weight alternative to KDE for those like me favoring Qt apps over GTK when possible, but sadly RQt has a dead end. Hope LXQt comes out as good as RQt is now. My 2 cents.
That is also the best road I see for the Solyd OSs. I think it would make things easier for the developers as well as making things more similar between the distros. Giving it better brand identity.

There will be a lot of decisions to make before we get to that point though. First and foremost would be to wait and see when LXQt is ready for prime time. There are alot of people here who love XFCE and dropping it can not be taken lightly. LXqt really needs to be ready before it can replace XFCE. I would expect we will see a community edition before we see any official releases. With any luck LxQt will have a polished and stable 1.0 release ready for the Debian Freeze. If LXQt can be ready for Jessie that would really give it a jump start.

Once Lxqt itself is ready I think the biggest decision will be which window manager to use. Do you keep it as light as possible and use openbox or do you sacrifice a little memory and use kwin. Personally, from what I have seen the extra resources used by kwin are marginal and the payback in features is huge. So my vote would be for kwin. That would really give the best Qt experience and would really make SolydL feel like KDE light. Bascially using kwin you have all the goodness of KDE without any unwanted bloat. Once again it also keeps the core of 2 systems more similar for easier maintenance. After that is decided there are all the other programs (Office suites, browsers, file managers etc). Where do you use heavier more featured programs and where do you keep it lighter. The target market for SoldyL would really need to be defined before it is created. Maybe as LXqt gets closer to production we can begin a thread with this conversation and see what people want from a SolydL option.

I expect no matter what happens with XFCE we will eventually see a SolydL edition. It just makes sense. But until it is really ready, I don't see Schoelje rushing into it. Its not his style to jump into something without thinking through how it affects the Solyd brand as a whole. Thats why I love this distro.

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Snap » 26 Sep 2014 15:18

I prefer Kwin too, but OpenBox is the default, so I guess if this ever happen, a possible SolydL should have OpenBox as default WM. IMO, Switching to Kwin should be an user option.
Maybe as LXqt gets closer to production we can begin a thread with this conversation and see what people want from a SolydL option.
But until it is really ready, I don't see Schoelje rushing into it. Its not his style to jump into something without thinking through how it affects the Solyd brand as a whole. Thats why I love this distro.
Sure. But whatever the results count at least on a unofficial community supported LXQt edition. 8-) The only reason why I didn't tempted the community about a razor-Qt edition is that there is a dead end independently of the Razor 6 release still scheduled.
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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Fargo » 26 Sep 2014 15:38

Snap wrote:I prefer Kwin too, but OpenBox is the default, so I guess if this ever happen, a possible SolydL should have OpenBox as default WM.
Why? I'm sure there will be lots of LXQT distros using the default OpenBox. If SolydL is geared towards business desktops and those users want features from kwin, lets give it to them. No need to make our distro like everyone else. I think using kwin would further set a SolydL distro apart from other LXQt distros.
Snap wrote: The only reason why I didn't tempted the community about a razor-Qt edition is that there is a dead end independently of the Razor 6 release still scheduled.
Yeah I really like Razor too. I wish LXQT would have just picked up where Razor left off instead of making razor fit lxde. But if the developers are working together I still have hopes we will see the best of both desktops. The merger is still a good thing. I look forward to a final 1.0 release.

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Snap » 27 Sep 2014 00:51

I wish LXQT would have just picked up where Razor left off instead of making razor fit lxde.
I cannot agree more. It can be said louder but not clearer. It's a shame that Razor had to go that way. But you know, the usual Linux problem. Lack of developers, so merge or die. Better LXQt that nothing.
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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Zill » 27 Sep 2014 11:21

Kwin? Hmm!

Having been bitten too often in the past by KDE stuff I wouldn't now want anything beginning with "K" on my systems. XFCE is fine as it is - let's not break it!

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby fleabus » 27 Sep 2014 11:53

My feeling is that any kind of Solyd LX-R-Q-whatever thing will be a CE.
However the renowned fleabus intuition has been known to fail miserably... :lol:
Fargo wrote:Yeah I really like Razor too. I wish LXQT would have just picked up where Razor left off instead of making razor fit lxde.
Yes, same here. I like Razor better. So far LXQt doesn't look too promising. I fear we're headed for LXDE with QT. We shall see how it goes...
jsalpha2 wrote:As one of the biggest Xfce fans out there I would be devastated if it went away.
I'm another hopeless Xfce addict; I would also be devastated. I think it's all good though. They're understaffed and so things move slowly, but I don't see anything in the atmosphere over there that looks gloomy. The devs seem ok, They're just doing what they can when they can.
Fargo wrote:I don't think think this is the end of XFCE. I think you don't see much development because they feel it is a mature DE. Why keep adding bells and whistles.
Exactly. They know they've got one of the best loved DEs out there.
jsalpha2 wrote:I have taken a quick look at Mate and Cinnamon, Openbox and even Trinity...
Mate seems ok. If the unthinkable actually did happen I might go there for a DE. For a WM I've got a thing for Fluxbox... And I've been hearing a lot about Trinity. Upon looking it up I was intrigued. I might check that out too.

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby greywolf » 27 Sep 2014 13:27

Just to, belatedly, add my 2 bobs worth to another of these wonderful discussions that in the end will solve nothing?! :?

Linux developers are a bit like camels in the desert in that they can go a LONG while between drinks at the "trough" without being declared dead! As such, I think it is a bit early to be using the "demise" word in regard to Xfce.

The pace of development has been slow though and IMHO it is primarily a GTK3 issue. This over-bloated, dependency hell, convoluted and totally retrictive piece of crap has sent many a dedicated developer to the edge screaming "I've had enough of ths crap & it's just not worth the effort anymore!!!!! (yes, I speak from personal experience). I think the reason Debian may be leaning back towards Gnome is because of the enormity of resources you have to throw at this "monster" - and Gnome already have those resources and have gone a long way down the development road. Xfce has only just started to address it. MATE will die when GTK2 dies - just my opinion!

Personally, at the DE level, I am hoping LXQT gets a wriggle on and provides something a bit more for long term productivity. It is not far away and I think shows great promise. That's for my clients. For me, I have just gone back to using Openbox ( & Fluxbox & a couple of others - see LinuxBBQ) a lot, so that I don't lose the editing knowledge. Let's face it, when dinosaurs like me started in this game, X server, GUI, DE were all just terms someone writing Blade Runner made up?!! :)

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby rokytnji » 27 Sep 2014 20:06

a GTK3 issue.
and I thought I was the only one having fun with custom scripts, system.d, and gtk.
http://antix.freeforums.org/post37084.html#p37084

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Longshot » 28 Sep 2014 06:03

Let's face it, like distributions, there are to many DE's popping up. Xfce is one of the all time greats and it's sad that it don't have more people working on it but I don't see it dying, just being slower to get new bells and whistles.

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Re: Is XFCE on it's last legs?

Postby Snap » 28 Sep 2014 09:13

Xfce is one of the all time greats and it's sad that it don't have more people working on it
This is really surprising to me, since Xfce is one of the most favored and widely used desktops within the Linux community.
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