How do you remove systemd and use sysvinit?

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How do you remove systemd and use sysvinit?

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 29 Oct 2014 15:50

With all the hubub about Systemd and Sysvinit in Jesse, some folks are finding ways to get things set up the way they want. Which is, IMHO, the whole point of Linux in the first place.

While I did not write this tutorial (I'm providing a link to the web site where the tutorial is), now did I test this out. I thought this would be informative for some of you. As for me, I'll stick with whatever happens to be a part of SolydXK at the moment. But for those of you who are "allergic" to systemd, maybe the following tutorial will help:

http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/201 ... stemd.html

Update: Turns out this article might not be a real tutorial but it's here for ideas, inspiration and discussion anyway.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby kurotsugi » 29 Oct 2014 19:07

I'm not even sure if the writer have tried that on his system. with the latest systemd I saw no one could have a working system on debian.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby nixer » 29 Oct 2014 19:31

Thank you very, very much for sharing this. Not only did I save the bookmark, I copied and pasted its contents and added it to my list of linux how-to's.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 29 Oct 2014 20:23

Has anyone actually tried this? Would be nice to see how it went and if people can share any additional tips and fixes.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby Snap » 29 Oct 2014 20:32

Might worth to try it on VM and see what happens, but as kurotsugi pointed out, I doubt it works in Jessie since systemd is strongly tied to the system and it's already way more than a simple init sytem. It originally was just an init system, but it's not anymore.

I won't take the mess to try it, BTW. :mrgreen:
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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby fleabus » 29 Oct 2014 21:59

Snap wrote:Might worth to try it on VM and see what happens, but as kurotsugi pointed out, I doubt it works in Jessie since systemd is strongly tied to the system and it's already way more than a simple init sytem. It originally was just an init system, but it's not anymore.

I won't take the mess to try it, BTW. :mrgreen:
Wholeheartedly Agree. :)

Two ways of moving in and out of systemd worked for me in testing. Installing and holding sysvinit-core, or installing systemd and switching back to sysV by ensuring I had the package "sysvinit" then adding the following grub "cheat" right after "quiet"

Code: Select all

 init=/lib/sysvinit/init
Actually pinning systemd to -1 I haven't tried yet.

Here are the posts wherein I was tearing out my hair:

http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?p=43343#p43343

You'd probably want to do this if you intended to run with sysV for daily use. However I declined to do that because in Jessie, one is then immersed in a constant battle to keep systemd off the machine, as more and more systemd dependencies are showing up in a lot of seemingly unrelated places.

You'd be inundated with complaints from apt if you tried to keep your system updated with the above in place.

For a while I thought I'd bite that bullet for the sake of testing and experimentation, but I didn't because I figured I had a pretty good crystal ball tuned in to that scenario.

So I'm going to be in a holding pattern for a pretty long time while all this shakes out. Rather than attempting to fight an uphill battle, I just go where systemd isn't whenever I don't feel like fooling with it.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby Orbmiser » 29 Oct 2014 21:59

Just curious if anyone knows why Debian is so entrenched and tied into systemd?
Is it because of their default going Gnome choice?
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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby fleabus » 29 Oct 2014 22:22

Orbmiser wrote:Just curious if anyone knows why Debian is so entrenched and tied into systemd?
Is it because of their default going Gnome choice?
Wow Orb, that's seriously a really good one. It's been/being discussed, hashed, rehashed, and hammered to death all over the forums and mailing lists. The signal to noise ratio at this point is 99% noise.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby kurotsugi » 29 Oct 2014 22:41

Just curious if anyone knows why Debian is so entrenched and tied into systemd?
Is it because of their default going Gnome choice?
nope. it was because lot's of critical system services now forcefully merged into systemd. whatever DE you use you won't escape from systemd invasion.

systemd now govern over network manager, mount, acpi, udev, udisk, upower, cron, at, login, polkit, syslog, console, dbus, cgroup, audit ... (the list will grow further when new systemd got released). without these stuffs you can't get a proper working system. I'm not even sure if you could boot your system without system. it's true that gnome won't work without systemd (since gnome-session depends on systemd) but neither the other DE.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby Orbmiser » 29 Oct 2014 22:47

fleabus wrote:
Orbmiser wrote:Just curious if anyone knows why Debian is so entrenched and tied into systemd?
Is it because of their default going Gnome choice?
Wow Orb, that's seriously a really good one. It's been/being discussed, hashed, rehashed, and hammered to death all over the forums and mailing lists. The signal to noise ratio at this point is 99% noise.
Well there is that and the constant as you put it Noise! Which gives me a headache and find confusing ;)

Personally I'm not die-hard for or against systemd. Tho do have some concerns about the future of Linux with the
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them mentality that seems to be seeping into the Linux culture & community. Now for many DE's or Distro's seems more of "We the Dev's Have a Vision" then "We the Community have a Vision". Tho some great distro's like SolydXK,Mint and a few other's that have a vision but willing to share and take suggestions from the community to make it even better for all.

May be my mis-perceptions which is quite possible. But that is how it's looking and feeling to me. So like to bounce my perceptions off other's to gage how far off the mark my perceptions may be. Old brain just can't make the connections like it use to do! :?

And thanks kurotsugi for reminding me. And should have made the connections and realized what a dumb statement that was asked by me. As should have taken the time to think it through before posting it.
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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby fleabus » 29 Oct 2014 22:55

kurotsugi wrote:....it was because lot's of critical system services now forcefully merged into systemd.
Orbmiser wrote:Tho do have some concerns about the future of Linux with the "One Ring to Bind Them! and in the Darkness Bind Them" mentality that seems to be seeping into the Linux culture & community.
Nailed it. That's the part that's got me fizzing. I have no problem with systemd itself, only with the herd mentality, the takeover stuff, and the killing off of alternatives by sleazy means. Freedom of choice used to be what Debian was all about.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby zerozero » 29 Oct 2014 23:50

the OP (at least so far) is not a tutorial.
the blog post linked is not a tutorial either (not even an howto); i have to agree with
kurotsugi wrote:I'm not even sure if the writer have tried that on his system. with the latest systemd I saw no one could have a working system on debian.
i almost bet the blog post author didn't try it :o

adding to
kurotsugi wrote:systemd now govern over network manager, mount, acpi, udev, udisk, upower, cron, at, login, polkit, syslog, console, dbus, cgroup, audit ... (the list will grow further when new systemd got released). without these stuffs you can't get a proper working system. I'm not even sure if you could boot your system without system. it's true that gnome won't work without systemd (since gnome-session depends on systemd) but neither the other DE.
in one of the threads discussing this same blog post someone else added
Also, you can't completely get rid of systemd on Debian any more...

Package: bsdutils
Essential: yes
Status: install ok installed
Priority: required
Section: utils
Installed-Size: 180
Maintainer: Debian util-linux Maintainers <ah-util-linux@debian.org>
Architecture: amd64
Multi-Arch: foreign
Source: util-linux (2.25.1-5)
Version: 1:2.25.1-5
Pre-Depends: libc6 (>= 2.15), libsystemd0
Recommends: bsdmainutils
Description-en: basic utilities from 4.4BSD-Lite
This package contains the bare minimum of BSD utilities needed for a
Debian system: logger, renice, script, scriptreplay, and wall. The
remaining standard BSD utilities are provided by bsdmainutils.
Description-md5: 48257031d7f91a8655d15ca8e9e4e07d

D'you see that? Yes that's right - you cannot get rid of libsystemd0, because for some reason, bsdutils now has a hard dependency on it - and you can't really get rid of bsdutils.
bliss of ignorance

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby fleabus » 30 Oct 2014 00:18

zerozero wrote:i have to agree with
kurotsugi wrote:I'm not even sure if the writer have tried that on his system. with the latest systemd I saw no one could have a working system on debian.
i almost bet the blog post author didn't try it :o
Agreed. It would have initiated a big battle. No point in trying to fight City Hall... ;)

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 30 Oct 2014 14:41

@zerozero - Thanks for moving the post for me. I probably should have put it here in the first place but since I didn't try the linked article's instructions and assumed it was a tutorial, I put it I guess in the wrong area. I agree it's not really a "HOWTO" either. I'll change the subject on the OP for that.

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Re: HOW TO: Remove systemd and use sysvinit

Postby Orbmiser » 30 Oct 2014 16:51

zerozero wrote:Also, you can't completely get rid of systemd on Debian any more...

Package: bsdutils

This package contains the bare minimum of BSD utilities needed for a
Debian system: logger, renice, script, scriptreplay, and wall. The
remaining standard BSD utilities are provided by bsdmainutils.
Description-md5: 48257031d7f91a8655d15ca8e9e4e07d

D'you see that? Yes that's right - you cannot get rid of libsystemd0, because for some reason, bsdutils now has a hard dependency on it - and you can't really get rid of bsdutils.
Thanks for the great info. Tho seems a bit strange that Linux depends on BSDutils.
This package contains lots of small programs many people expect to find when they use a bsd-style unix system.

it provides banner (as printerbanner), calendar, col, colcrt, colrm, column, from (as bsd-from), hexdump (or hd), look, lorder, ncal (or cal), ul, and write (as bsd-write).

this package used to contain whois and vacation, which are now distributed in their own packages. also here was tsort, which is now in the "coreutils" package.
Looks like maybe no way to get rid of it altogether? Too many little programs would need to be rewritten for linux?

I'm just starting to wonder just how modular systemd actually is? As touted that you can swap out or not use different components of systemd. But wondering if that is more of a mute point now with hard dependencies and distro's bases are tightly wrapping and rolling them into their distro's?

Can't help notice a trickle down phenomena is happening of many forked distro's being harnessed for good or bad down the line. And limiting their choices to not include systemd. Eliminating choices for distro's to fine-tune a distro their way.

Will do some more reading on the issues to educate myself and not come across as a complete dunce in this arena! :?

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Re: How do you remove systemd and use sysvinit?

Postby kurotsugi » 30 Oct 2014 18:44

well...I'm not an systemd hater, in fact, I was systemd early adopter and have been using it since v44 on debian. my best experience with systemd is probably around v204. but, later, with recent systemd release it feels that my system is possessed by something unknown.

for an instance, for misterious reason I can't disable several services. I tried 'systemctl disable <unit>' but it got ignored and the service still executed at boot. with the latest version I found that systemd is ignoring my fstab setting and mount my swap partition. 'systemctl disable foo' doesn't work as expected. I tried to open some related documentation files they said 'systemd [will] read fstab and [won't] mount swap partition/swap files unless it stated on fstab or user manually created a swap unit'.

http://www.freedesktop.org/software/sys ... .swap.html

I thougt removing the unit file should solve my problem but it doesn't. 'something' which posessed my system is too powerfull for me to handle it. I've tried to remove the swap unit but that 'thing' will create a new one and enable it whenever I boot up my system.

does anyone here have same experience with me?

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Re: How do you remove systemd and use sysvinit?

Postby Snap » 30 Oct 2014 19:14

I really don't know about fstab, but the systemadm tool seems to do nothing. If you select to stop or disable a service (or unit) nothing happens. It seems to be ignored.
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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Re: How do you remove systemd and use sysvinit?

Postby Orbmiser » 30 Oct 2014 19:55

Disable a Service From Starting at Boot

Example: Disable Cups starting up on boot

Code: Select all

$ sudo systemctl disable cups
rm '/etc/systemd/system/printer.target.wants/cups.service'
rm '/etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/cups.path'
rm '/etc/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/cups.socket'
So seems need to do more than just disable for startup? And don't know if that is the same for the swap thing?

From the Man pages


disable [NAME...]

Disables one or more units. This removes all symlinks to the specified unit files from the unit configuration directory, and hence undoes the changes made by enable. Note however that this removes all symlinks to the unit files (i.e. including manual additions), not just those actually created by enable. This call implicitly reloads the systemd daemon configuration after completing the disabling of the units. Note that this command does not implicitly stop the units that is being disabled.

The symlinks are there to associate the unit with a target -- this is the same as the symlinks used in sysV rcN.d runlevel directories.1 Disabling a unit removes those, since they are what "enable" it be run with whatever target(s).
Once those are gone, the only thing that is left is the .service file you presumably created. Erase/remove that and you're done.

Like I said before just shooting in the dark and ignorant of systemd use. But thought to take a couple of pot shots in the dark. As those are always fun trying to hit a target. :o
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Re: How do you remove systemd and use sysvinit?

Postby Snap » 30 Oct 2014 20:34

Interesting... and this brings the same question once again. Why systemd (systemctl disable whatever.unit) ignores the command? Or the systemadm GUI tool for the same tasks.
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Re: How do you remove systemd and use sysvinit?

Postby kurotsugi » 30 Oct 2014 23:16

Once those are gone, the only thing that is left is the .service file you presumably created. Erase/remove that and you're done.
the problem is that I never created anything. it's 'that thing' who create it and 'that thing' will create new unit file whenever I delete that unit file.

anyway, deleting an unit, especially a service is a dangerous thing. we mustn't do that unless if you really know what we do and understand all the risk. systemd have several kinds of units. it could be a service, timer, target, slice, swap, scope, or mount. a service is the most common and it provided by either a service file (which comes from the packages/software) or something in /etc/init.d/. we usually can easily manipulate them via systemctl or sysv-rc-conf (in case if it was part of sysvinit). the other unit, on other hand, isn't easy to control it. my last experience with swap was about a swap unit and it doesn't work like a service unit.


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