The /usr merge

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Snap
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The /usr merge

Postby Snap » 12 Nov 2014 12:30

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Softwar ... eUsrMerge/

Will this affect Debian and thus SolydXK?

I'm reading the howtos to do this in Chakra. To me it sounds like a good idea simplifying the system locations and $PATH to store and gather similar stuff into fewer directories instead of spreading it in several locations. What do you think, guys?
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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kurotsugi
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Re: The /usr merge

Postby kurotsugi » 12 Nov 2014 14:03

as an end-user I doesn't care as long as my system works but later I found that page is linked with with systemd and gives me mysterious chill :3

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby Zill » 12 Nov 2014 16:35

kurotsugi wrote:as an end-user I doesn't care as long as my system works...
...and this is the crux of the matter. Solaris, Fedora, Debian and all other *nix distros all work well just the way they are! There is no reason to change the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS) just because Oracle and RH choose to do so.

I doubt there would be much advantage for those of us running Debian based distros and it would simply add another level of confusion for us all to sort out!

Shortening the $PATH variable is not sufficient justification IMHO. ;-)

The old adage is very relevant here... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"!

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby zerozero » 12 Nov 2014 16:52

this will help us understand why we are in this situation
The /bin vs /usr/bin split (and all the others) is an artifact of this, a
1970's implementation detail that got carried forward for decades by
bureaucrats who never question _why_ they're doing things. It stopped making
any sense before Linux was ever invented, for multiple reasons:
bliss of ignorance

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby kurotsugi » 12 Nov 2014 17:04

well...if you cut my post that way you might feel that I agree with the merge. I'm not. personally I disagree with this issue but if you're not a developer you'll probably doesn't know whether if your distro merged /usr or not :3
it won't have any effect in our daily live too...the one will got affected by the issue is the package/distro maintainer, and the other upstream developer. not us. that's what I mean with 'as end-user'.

allow me to quote some part of the page
Not implementing the /usr merge in your distribution will isolate it from upstream development. It will make porting of packages needlessly difficult, because packagers need to split up installed files into multiple directories and hard code different locations for tools; both will cause unnecessary incompatibilities....bla bla bla
sounds like an arrogant nonsense threat. with the large adoption of systemd RH now seems to thinks that they could control everything on linux society.

anyway...debian was actually want to follow that trend https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00256.html

EDIT: now I finally understand why I hate this idea http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=236 the article described my though quite well :lol:

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby Zill » 12 Nov 2014 19:40

kurotsugi wrote:well...if you cut my post that way you might feel that I agree with the merge. I'm not. personally I disagree with this issue but if you're not a developer you'll probably doesn't know whether if your distro merged /usr or not...
I think you must be referring to my post and, if so, I must apologise if I gave the impression that you agree with the merge. This certainly was not my intention and I was simply trying to agree with your views.

TBH, I doubt if merging /usr will make much difference to me - but I also cannot see any advantage to it. :-(
kurotsugi wrote:EDIT: now I finally understand why I hate this idea http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=236 the article described my though quite well :lol:
Yep! Me too. :-)

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby Snap » 13 Nov 2014 00:00

This guy is gravitating over every single polemic change in Linux lately, isn't he? :lol:

Aside of that, whatever the route the Linux world takes, I'd love to see some standardization. It's nice if you only use one distro or one flavor, let's say Debian based distros, but It's certainly annoying needing to discover where the heck are located certain files in certain distros.
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Re: The /usr merge

Postby kurotsugi » 13 Nov 2014 02:46

imho, the only bad thing about that idea is that it comes from 'our mighty lord lennart'. ubuntu already follow this idea since quantal while debian tried to achieve it on jessie. i believe other distro will follow this trend soon or later. the problem with debian is that it have overly democratic structure. debian constitute stated that no one may force package maintainer to do something they didn't want to do. one package maintainer who against this idea is enough to cancel it :3

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby Snap » 13 Nov 2014 06:07

Really? it doesn't sound like this when it comes to systemd. Devs abandoning the boat and some others threatening with a fork. It's true that it's sad that Red Hat and Mr Poettering are apparently ruling the Linux world or trying to, but the rest is progressively accepting their proposals letting this to happen. Even the democratic Debian. :roll:
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Re: The /usr merge

Postby Snap » 13 Nov 2014 07:22

Well, time to bork my Chakra install. :mrgreen: Today with the new release, is the day for the /usr merge. It's strange that KaOS didn't merged it yet... It's even more "avant garde".
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 13 Nov 2014 17:43

I always wondered why there are so many paths to here, there, everywhere. However, how will this affect security? I like having a /bin for users to use but /usr/bin for anyone to use and /sbin for only admins. But then doesn't file permissions also take care of that making the need for a /bin redundant? In addition, I'm one of those who actually has and uses a ~/bin directory (it's one of the first things I create when I set up my system).

Now thinking about it though, I think it would be nice to have things more simplified. Instead even of a /usr/.... and /usr/local/... etc. I am all for eliminating the /usr directory altogether and merging everything in those into /bin, /etc, and so on. Same for /opt. I see no reason for that either. Execution/use of files can be controlled via file permissions for that matter.

It might make a mess of some systems in transition but I think in the long run adopting a more simpler standard would make things easier in the future.

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby zerozero » 13 Nov 2014 20:02

Zill wrote:
kurotsugi wrote:EDIT: now I finally understand why I hate this idea http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=236 the article described my though quite well :lol:
Yep! Me too. :-)
come on guys :)
are we reading the same page?!? :P
The “pro” side points out:

Nothing will really change for users, as symlinks will make old stuff still work.
There are precedents in Solaris and Fedora.
The weak reasonings used previously to separate / and /usr no longer apply.
Separate /usr has become increasingly unsupported anyway.
Moving to /usr will enable genuine R/O root filesystem sharing.
The “anti” side, however, raises very salient points:

Lennart Poettering supports it.
Lennart Poettering is an asshole.
if that blog post wasn't sarcastic trying to show the emptiness of the "anti" side;
if it wasn't sarcastic and it was supposed to be taken serious it would be sad that the best argument of the "anti" side is an "ad hominem" attack :roll:
bliss of ignorance

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby Zill » 13 Nov 2014 20:30

zerozero wrote:...if that blog post wasn't sarcastic trying to show the emptiness of the "anti" side;
if it wasn't sarcastic and it was supposed to be taken serious it would be sad that the best argument of the "anti" side is an "ad hominem" attack :roll:
Fair comment! My "endorsement" of the blog was primarily an appreciation of the humour, hence my smiley on the end.

Regrettably, I don't really feel competent enough to argue technically about the pros and cons of /usr and will leave this to those with more knowledge to fight it out. If a decision is made to change /usr I will likely go along with it and then adapt accordingly. Of course, if the going gets too tough, there are always other Linux distros that may take a different path . ;-)

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby kurotsugi » 13 Nov 2014 21:08

Really? it doesn't sound like this when it comes to systemd.
the systemd case and this idea is quite different. the merge idea (at least for those who doesn't use systemd) is more like 'an advice' and we're completely free to adopt it or not. in other hand, the systemd case, lot of people think that if you use this stuff in your system it will slowly 'eat' and take control everything in your system.
Not implementing the /usr merge in your distribution will isolate it from upstream development.
upstream is actually means 'systemd'. one day lord lennart decided to move everything in /usr and he want linux society to follow him. the quoted statement above means that systemd will drop the support of unmerged /usr in future. both systemd and lennart's 'anti' faction will surely not agree with this idea because it basicly means that you permit systemd to further 'invade' your system.

you can imagine a nightmare when lord lennart want linux society to do everything he did and he forced them by "not <put lord lennart command here> in your distribution will isolate it from upstream development."

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby Snap » 14 Nov 2014 07:09

Well, seems to be happening. Pulseaudio is already everywhere, systemd is going to be, and the /usr merge seems to be the next step and resistance is not stopping it. For the good or for the bad, Red hat and thus Poettering are ruling the Nix world now.
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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Re: The /usr merge

Postby kurotsugi » 14 Nov 2014 09:23

there was an old story from the 'anti' side:
once upon a time lord lennart want to tweak pulseaudio conf file so that his sound system work at it's best. later, he feel linux society must follow him so he made an upstream change on pulseaudio. apparently, his conf file only work with his audio system. the rest system with incompatible conf file got an unusable audio system. linux society got a massive audio breakage that day
sadly, lord lennart commands are absolute. the pattern is similar "not <put lord lennart command here> in your distribution will isolate it from upstream development." sometimes he also use a direct one "not use <put lord lennart product here> will make your system unusable" this is what he said when gentoo decided to not use systemd and instead develop their own openrc as their init.
I am tempted to say that we should merge the firmware loader removal
patch at the same time as the kdbus requirement is made. As that would
be a clean cut anyway...

Also note that at that point we intend to move udev onto kdbus as
transport, and get rid of the userspace-to-userspace netlink-based
tranport udev used so far. Unless the systemd-haters prepare another
kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will
not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore
starting at that
point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call.

Lennart

--
Lennart Poettering, Red Hat


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