Debian PPAs are coming?

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palimmo
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Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby palimmo » 12 May 2015 17:47

An interesting article
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Debian-P ... 0899.shtml

Debian PPAs Won't Work with Ubuntu or Viceversa
It looks like Debian is doing its own thing with PPAs
One of the promises made by the new Debian leader, Neil McGovern, was that he will push for the implementation of PPA support. It's an interesting proposition, but it doesn't mean that Debian will support the existing Ubuntu PPAs.
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wayne
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby wayne » 13 May 2015 05:17

To me that is a good news.

Save lots of trouble reading and following lenghty Debian wiki. :lol:

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belze
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby belze » 13 May 2015 21:00

we'll see a next-level-frankendebian imho. :evil:
I'd better love to see something like a REAL unstable with up to date packages (who said kde packagers lack of manpower?!). It is not so hard to pin some packages to pick up from unstable or even experimental (examples: iceweasel had zero problems in last YEARS, libreoffice neither).
Debian would need some serious restyle in their work flow, maybe some priority channel for desktop/laptop usage vs server/embeds/critical but INSIDE debian's structure and not of control.
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falke
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby falke » 14 May 2015 07:40

It is not so hard to pin some packages to pick up from unstable or even experimental (examples: iceweasel had zero problems in last YEARS, libreoffice neither).
Okay , then let make Us a nice tuto, because I' ve read the explanation a couple of time, and feel really worry to do that

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belze
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby belze » 14 May 2015 14:19

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kurotsugi
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby kurotsugi » 14 May 2015 18:13

compared to other distro, debian have lot of limitation of what could be created as a package. the forecoming PPA would have several benefits:
1. increase the package diversity in debian. for an ilustration, debian have ~30k packages. while ubuntu, with his less strict rules, has ~70k packages. the number drastically improved if you count the packages on ubuntu's PPA.
2. improve the functionality of packages provided by debian. some functionality in some packages (ex: mariadb, wine, and mono) due to strict rules of debian have been removed. with the PPA we could get back those missing functionalities.
3.makes the community easier to contribute into debian.

ubuntu have PPA while arch have AUR, I'm not quite sure but I think other modern distro also have similar stuff. IMO having a PPA-like infrastucture could be considered as common feature on modern linux distro.

Deleted User 2763

Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 15 May 2015 13:05

Whatever happens, I hope it won't spiral down into the equivalent of "rpm he**".
"One stop shopping" has always been a reason for me sticking with Debian.
-Hinto

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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 16 May 2015 19:28

Everyone hates PPA's. And I can understand the dependency h-e-double-hockeysticks issues we all dread and avoid like the plague. That said, I used PPAs for things like Gimp, Blender, Google Chrome and other applications with success back when I was running Linux Mint 14.

I think having PPAs is a nice idea if it is an option, and not default. For those who want to help develop or tinker or have the latest and greatest royally break their machines (as some say/fear - which I haven't had that happen when I was using them), then at least the option is there for those that want to use it.

For those that don't (I'm currently included in that group now out of convenience and need for stability), then we can just ignore the PPAs. :)

Deleted User 2763

Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 17 May 2015 01:24

BTW..
Liquorix doesn't use ppas.
http://liquorix.net/
-Hinto

kurotsugi
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby kurotsugi » 17 May 2015 07:13

liquorix didn't use ppa because ppa for debian didn't exist and they designed the kernel to works both for debian and ubuntu. even if debian ppa exist they won't use it because it won't work for ubuntu. we can see ppa as third party repo but that's not the only benefit of ppa. for the user, they can easily add 3rd party repo easily with one single command and safely manage them. as for the developer, they're free from maintaining the repo and the packages. with ppa developer simply update the source code and the ppa will build the packages and other jobs for them.
The main aim of PPAs is to improve the workflow of Debian members, so they can easily create alternate versions of software that work with the main Debian system, and integrate them into the archive.

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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 17 May 2015 12:45

What is the "main Debian system" ? stable? testing? unstable?
If a PPA is using testing (or unstable) and you hook into it with stable, your system might have to move some packages to testing (or unstable) in order to install the software from there. This can really mess things up, especially if you later need to downgrade packages. The PPA's will have to be very carefully managed since they will have more unknowns to deal with than Ubuntu and their PPA's.
-Hinto

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belze
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby belze » 17 May 2015 13:58

hinto wrote:What is the "main Debian system" ? stable? testing? unstable?
If a PPA is using testing (or unstable) and you hook into it with stable, your system might have to move some packages to testing (or unstable) in order to install the software from there. This can really mess things up, especially if you later need to downgrade packages. The PPA's will have to be very carefully managed since they will have more unknowns to deal with than Ubuntu and their PPA's.
-Hinto
You're right!
I can't see how ppas can work in unstable, where packages and libraries may vary very quickly (freeze-times apart). It can be easier in testing, but i have some doubts. Or am I missing some features PPAs has? I mean, do PPAs rebuild packages often in order to keep consistency with system libraries?
That said, PPAs can work for stable, where you have a stable system and no worries about changes in API and such, but after some months the system is too old - i think - and new software may be unable to build against it. Example, is it possible to build a recent version of plasma desktop in debian stable right now, after less than 1 month from stable's release? If ever such PPAs would exist, how can it supply plasma without introducing newer system libraries?
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Zill
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby Zill » 17 May 2015 15:29

Well, we can all choose our own path to hell and, IMO, PPAs are one of the fastest ways to get there! Back in the old days I used to run Ubuntu and, even there, I avoided PPAs like the plague - there were just too many horror stories when trying to upgrade systems with PPAs embedded in them.

Debian (stable) has built its reputation on rock-solid stability. The "other" versions, such as sid and testing are simply a means to this end and, as these systems can already have later packages, there is no need for PPAs. As far as I can see, PPAs on Debian stable would offer no advantage over backports. In my own case, I would be extremely wary of installing either type of package on my systems as I simply do not like breakage! ;-)

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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 17 May 2015 15:44

Zill wrote:there were just too many horror stories when trying to upgrade systems with PPAs embedded in them.
This is probably why I didn't have any trouble with PPAs in Mint: When it came time to upgrade, the recommended path was a complete fresh re-install, rather than an upgrade. I liked Mint, but wasn't fond of reinstalling fresh every time I had to do an upgrade. This is the #1 reason I moved here to SolydXK. Upon that move, I've never used PPAs. Except for Google Chrome, which I still haven't had any problems with thus far. I get Chrome from Google directly.

That said, now time to contradict myself. :mrgreen: I too don't think it's great to add in PPAs. The whole idea of a repository would be nullified. The idea for having a repository is so that other people's programs would be tested and working with the entire system, and not break it or require something that's not in the repos. And too I think it helps to eliminate malware risk (not that Linux is even prone to it as much as other OSs).

Just to be more clear on my own opinion of PPAs, while I was lucky to have success with them in the past, I really wouldn't recommend them now. And highly would say 'no way' for any system that one would rely on for their work or day-to-day computing.

kurotsugi
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby kurotsugi » 17 May 2015 17:28

What is the "main Debian system" ? stable? testing? unstable?
well...the debian's PPA haven't realized yet so we can only hope they take account that matter when designing it. It will really nice if the future debian PPA could work at least for both stable and testing. it's true that sid is constantly moving but the build library due to their development period will freeze for every 6 months.
Example, is it possible to build a recent version of plasma desktop in debian stable right now, after less than 1 month from stable's release? If ever such PPAs would exist, how can it supply plasma without introducing newer system libraries?
I'm not quite sure but it should be possible. as long as the API didn't drastically changed the package maintainer could try to port and build the packages using older build libraries. the code might modified and due to the API stuff some of feature might be removed but surely we can do it. the case is similar with linuxmint with their cinnamon. the gtk-tools used to build cinnamon is different but they succesfully build same version cinnamon for both LMDE and the main version. in addition, qt is less disruptive than gtk so we have higher chances to do it for plasma.
The idea for having a repository is so that other people's programs would be tested and working with the entire system, and not break it or require something that's not in the repos. And too I think it helps to eliminate malware risk (not that Linux is even prone to it as much as other OSs).
I believe it's the opposite. if we talk about official repository then what you said might true but if we count 3rd party repositories it's the complete opposites.
1. it's not tested. the repo owner build the packages with his system and might not works with other system.
2. it's not safe. basicly you didn't know what or how the packages compiled. the owner repo might unnoticedly insert some malicious code.
not to forget that if the owner repo forget to update his packages you might ended up with serious problems. since PPA is based on source code everything is transparent for both fellow developer and the user. thus, it's lot safer compared to 3rd party repositories.

as I've said earlier PPA-like infrastructure have becomes common feature on modern distros. ubuntu have PPA, arch have AUR, while fedora and opensuse have OBS. fedora even move futher with copr, koji, and other suttfs. in summary, all major distro seems already have it. debian is conservative so it's quite understandable that it's the last distro who implement it. however, just like the case with systemd they can't avoid it forever.

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belze
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby belze » 17 May 2015 18:23

talking about AUR, this should be a much more interesting feature!
Imagine if you can publish a debianized source code and than users can install it simply doing apt-source and than build on their own system. I would appreciate such a system much better than PPAs! 8-) I think debian mentors is something similar.

I gave as example plasma because i know they require qt 5.4 and stable has 5.3.x, so until qt5.4 will be backported a PPA for a fresh plasma desktop should include a newer qt version, this will break (potentially) official debian packages built against qt5.3 and so on.
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kurotsugi
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Re: Debian PPAs are coming?

Postby kurotsugi » 17 May 2015 18:56

I see...unfortunately qt won't be backported to stable. by plasma complexity it will quite hard to port it into debian stable.


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