[SOLVED] Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

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Fargo
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[SOLVED] Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Fargo » 01 Mar 2017 20:19

Two part question here.
1) Will the next release of SolydK be using the LTS KDE 5.8? I thought it was the one that made the freeze.

2) Now my more important question. If KDE 5.8 is an LTS and its the one that made the freeze for Stretch, will Debian allow for the point releases as KDE 5.8 gets updates? I know Debian would not allow updates to say KDE 5.9 in the Stable repo, but how will they handle LTS updates? It would be a shame to have a KDE LTS as part of the system but not take advantage of the LTS updates.

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Zill
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Zill » 01 Mar 2017 22:05

The KDE announcement "KDE at 20: Plasma 5.8 LTS. Here for the Long Term" does not seem to quantify the period of Long Term Support and, with a quick websearch, I have not found any more info about this!
Tuesday, 4 October 2016. Today KDE releases its first Long Term Support edition of its flagship desktop software, Plasma...

As LTS periods are normally clearly defined, this seems to be a strange omission by KDE IMHO.

However, I would expect an LTS DE to remain at the same build standard for the life of the Debian stable release.

If a user later wanted to upgrade the DE then I would expect this could be done by using Debian backports.

Of course, all this is just guesswork on my part. Personally, I wouldn't touch KDE with a bargepole! :lol:

Fargo
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Fargo » 01 Mar 2017 22:50

This page shows the Plasma 5.8 updates through 5.8.9 which will be released 2018-4-10. So approximately one year from now. I'm not sure if thats the final release or not. But a years worth of bug fixes and security updates would be better than nothing or just being stuck with whatever was in the repo during the freeze. I would think that Debian would allow kde bug fixes into the repo. To me that would seem to be the whole point of a Stable release. But then again, since Debian defines Stable and the repos do not change, maybe thats goes against being stable. I guess thats what I am trying to figure out.

[url]
https://community.kde.org/Schedules/Plasma_5[/url]

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Zill
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Zill » 01 Mar 2017 23:38

Debian stable does not generally incorporate bug fixes unless these are particularly critical. However, security updates are incorporated into Debian stable as and when necessary for the life of the stable release...

"Security Information":
Debian takes security very seriously. We handle all security problems brought to our attention and ensure that they are corrected within a reasonable timeframe. Many advisories are coordinated with other free software vendors and are published the same day a vulnerability is made public and we also have a Security Audit team that reviews the archive looking for new or unfixed security bugs.

"DebianReleases":
At any given time, there is one stable release of Debian, which has the support of the Debian security team. When a new stable version is released, the security team will usually cover the previous version for a year or so, while they also cover the new/current version. Only stable is recommended for production use.

"Debian Security Team":
The security team evaluates security threats, and produces updated packages for our stable and old-stable releases, and release these packages through security.debian.org together with an advisory mail.

The preferred situation is that the regular maintainer of an affected package (who is most familiar with its ins and outs) prepares updated packages or a ready to use patch which, after approval, will be uploaded to security-master. If the regular maintainer can't or won't provide updates (in time), the security team will take the task of creating the updated packages.

kurotsugi
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby kurotsugi » 02 Mar 2017 00:50

first of all, the LTS/stable/<whatever> release of certain softwares doesn't really matter for debian. softwares has it's own release schedule while debian also has it's own release schedule. stable in debian means that the software version is never updated so basicly it means that you'll stuck with whatever you got on debian release. with this understanding...
1) Will the next release of SolydK be using the LTS KDE 5.8? I thought it was the one that made the freeze.

the latest plasma in debian is 5.8.4 so, yes, it is an LTS.
2) Now my more important question. If KDE 5.8 is an LTS and its the one that made the freeze for Stretch, will Debian allow for the point releases as KDE 5.8 gets updates? I know Debian would not allow updates to say KDE 5.9 in the Stable repo, but how will they handle LTS updates? It would be a shame to have a KDE LTS as part of the system but not take advantage of the LTS updates.

normally, no. the version in stretch will be forever 5.8.4. however, please note that KDE LTS never got feature updates. as indicated in your link. 5.8.x series only receive *bugfixes*. no new feature. no new shiny things. basicly 5.8.4 and 5.8.9 is the same plasma.
This page shows the Plasma 5.8 updates through 5.8.9 which will be released 2018-4-10. So approximately one year from now. I'm not sure if thats the final release or not. But a years worth of bug fixes and security updates would be better than nothing or just being stuck with whatever was in the repo during the freeze. I would think that Debian would allow kde bug fixes into the repo. To me that would seem to be the whole point of a Stable release. But then again, since Debian defines Stable and the repos do not change, maybe thats goes against being stable. I guess thats what I am trying to figure out.
the version in debian is stuck on 5.8.4 but it doesn't means that it receive no updates. every packages in debian is considered as *pseudo LTS* and they'll got necessary updates. though, the amount of updates might different with the one from upstream. the security team single handedly manage all debian packages (~65.000 packages) so they'll only consider high priority updates (security updates is one of high priority updates but it's not the only one. the security team is also responsible for fixing other high priority bugs).

in short. technically the plasma in stretch will be forever 5.8.4 *but* practically it will still receive all necessary updates. it will only 5.8.4 in name but it will receive necessary updates until new debian got released (approx. 2019). it's not a disadvantages because plasma LTS only receive updates until 2018 but debian's plasma will continue getting updates approximately until 2021.

Fargo
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Fargo » 02 Mar 2017 02:22

kurotsugi wrote:normally, no. the version in stretch will be forever 5.8.4. however, please note that KDE LTS never got feature updates. as indicated in your link. 5.8.x series only receive *bugfixes*. no new feature. no new shiny things. basicly 5.8.4 and 5.8.9 is the same plasma.


Thanks kurotsugi. That answers my question. I think its unfortunate that Debian doesn't take advantage of the KDE LTS bugfixes. It would seem to me that the KDE LTS would be a perfect fit for Debian Stable since it doesn't add features but will address bugs and security issues. But I understand their policy. I suppose you could also argue that after the 4th point release KDE should really have the bugs worked out of that version of Plasma anyway.

kurotsugi
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby kurotsugi » 02 Mar 2017 04:10

I think its unfortunate that Debian doesn't take advantage of the KDE LTS bugfixes.

actually, they did. they didn't make the bugfixes by themself. all the bugfixes are comes from upstream (plasma developer). you missed my last part
in short. technically the plasma in stretch will be forever 5.8.4 *but* practically it will still receive all necessary updates. it will only 5.8.4 in name but it will receive necessary updates until new debian got released (approx. 2019)

the debian's version name is stuck on 5.8.4 but since all 5.8.x are practically same 5.8, plasma in debian will receive the updates upto 5.8.9 (the latest 5.8.x series). additionally, it also receive the security updates from next plasma LTS version. if you take a look to the release schedule, 5.9.x series already released on januari. however, debian prefer to stuck with 5.8.x series. I think they did it intenionally to get the benefit of LTS version, just like what they did with another softwares.

Fargo
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Fargo » 02 Mar 2017 15:18

Yeah, I guess I missed what your saying there. I thought you just meant that Plasma will get security fixes from Debian. So its as good as the later Plasma point updates. I missed that Debian will actually use upstream updates from Plasma. Even if they don't adopt the numbers. That would be good and makes most sense to me. But why not just update which point release Plasma is on to avoid confusion. Either way, I am looking forward to Plasma 5. Especially Debian with the Plasma LTS, I think will be a beautiful and stable combination.

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Zill
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Zill » 02 Mar 2017 15:46

Fargo wrote:... But why not just update which point release Plasma is on to avoid confusion.

... Because software point releases are totally irrelevant as far as the end-user is concerned. As kurotsugi pointed out, "no new feature. no new shiny things. basicly 5.8.4 and 5.8.9 is the same plasma".

Please appreciate that Debian stable is a collection of software packages that are have been tested to ensure that they work well together. This situation must be maintained for the life of the Debian stable release and so this precludes any significant changes in software functionality. Only security updates and some important bug fixes are permitted.

Fargo
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Fargo » 02 Mar 2017 22:24

Zill wrote:
Fargo wrote:... But why not just update which point release Plasma is on to avoid confusion.

... Because software point releases are totally irrelevant as far as the end-user is concerned. As kurotsugi pointed out, "no new feature. no new shiny things. basicly 5.8.4 and 5.8.9 is the same plasma".

Please appreciate that Debian stable is a collection of software packages that are have been tested to ensure that they work well together. This situation must be maintained for the life of the Debian stable release and so this precludes any significant changes in software functionality. Only security updates and some important bug fixes are permitted.


I appreciate that Debian stable is a collection of software that has been tested. Thats why I use it. I guess I'm just confused on the answers I've gotten here regarding Plasma LTS. It was basically stated that 'Yes, Debian will use all the Plasma updates but they won't change the number'. Which I said is weird. If your using the software package, then use the package and don't just pull out bits and pieces and reassemble them so you don't have to acknowledge that its Plasma 5.6 or whatever. Then you say to appreciate that the software doesn't change. Only security updates and bug fixes. Implying that none of the Plasma updates will be incorporated.

So I guess I'm still confused. Is Debian using the Plasma updates from upstream but stripping out the numbers or are they not using any KDE updates. Does Debian only update with their own security fixes. I understand that one way or another Debian will have security. I'm not concerned about that at all. I was just wondering if they will include point releases of Plasma. I've never watched my system close enough to see if any of the programs included get point releases. From what I have read between the lines here, it sounds like they most likely don't include any software point release. But I guess the earlier comments that said they have all the same updates but don't use the KDE number system confused me.

So is it fair to summarize and simply say that Debian will not update Plasma with any of the point releases. But Debian will continue to issue any required security fixes?

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Zill
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Zill » 02 Mar 2017 23:44

Fargo wrote:... Is Debian using the Plasma updates from upstream but stripping out the numbers or are they not using any KDE updates. Does Debian only update with their own security fixes. I understand that one way or another Debian will have security. I'm not concerned about that at all. I was just wondering if they will include point releases of Plasma. I've never watched my system close enough to see if any of the programs included get point releases. From what I have read between the lines here, it sounds like they most likely don't include any software point release. But I guess the earlier comments that said they have all the same updates but don't use the KDE number system confused me.

So is it fair to summarize and simply say that Debian will not update Plasma with any of the point releases. But Debian will continue to issue any required security fixes?

AIUI, Debian is not obliged to track an upstream packagers' numbering system. Debian will review the information provided by the upstream maintainer and then, if an upgrade is justified by either a security patch or an important bug fix, they will then issue an upgraded package for Debian stable. However, Debian's objective is not to introduce any more stable package upgrades than necessary to ensure that the release remains as unchanged as possible for the life of the release.

See "Debian Developer's Duties"...
3.1.2. Maintain packages in stable

Most of the package maintainer's work goes into providing updated versions of packages in unstable, but their job also entails taking care of the packages in the current stable release.

While changes in stable are discouraged, they are possible. Whenever a security problem is reported, you should collaborate with the security team to provide a fixed version (see Section 5.8.5, “Handling security-related bugs”). When bugs of severity important (or more) are reported against the stable version of your packages, you should consider providing a targeted fix. You can ask the stable release team whether they would accept such an update and then prepare a stable upload (see Section 5.5.1, “Special case: uploads to the stable and oldstable distributions”).

Fargo
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Re: Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Fargo » 02 Mar 2017 23:58

Thank you gentleman for all the input. I think I have a pretty good idea now of how KDE and any other updates are handled in Stable. I'll mark this as solved.

kurotsugi
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Re: [SOLVED] Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby kurotsugi » 03 Mar 2017 07:37

But why not just update which point release Plasma is on to avoid confusion. Either way, I am looking forward to Plasma 5. Especially Debian with the Plasma LTS, I think will be a beautiful and stable combination.

well...because the "rules" stated that the version number is static. though, no one ever say about the content of it :lol:

So is it fair to summarize and simply say that Debian will not update Plasma with any of the point releases. But Debian will continue to issue any required security fixes?

the version number will stay like that...but...the content would be different. the security team got a lot of job. the update process are:
1. check the upstream code. see whether if there're high priority updates.
2. carefully select high priority updates, apply the patch to current source code
3. try to rebuild the package. if not succed, fix it. after it succed
4. debug it until no bug appear. fix any new bug.
5. rebuild the new shiny no bug version.
6. upload it to the repo.

this is the "normal" SOP. but since 5.8.x series are LTS version, they may cut the process
1. check the upstream code
2. apply the patch. rebuild
3. upload it to the repo

however, again, it's depends on the security team. it depends on whether if they have time and the workload. sometimes they did cut the process to save time and lessen the work if the upstream was an LTS version. which means, the plasma will be only 5.8.4 in names but it could be actually an 5.8.9.

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Zill
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Re: [SOLVED] Will SoldydK 9 use KDE LTS and will Debian update LTS updates

Postby Zill » 03 Mar 2017 12:01

I would just add that SolydXK (and Debian stable) is supposed to be fully functional without an end-user needing to worry about the minutae of software version numbers and point-releases.

To use a motoring analogy, a car driver rarely knows (or even cares!) about the version of software used in the car's engine control unit (ECU). They just trust that the car manufacturer has used software that is fit for purpose.

With Linux distros, I suggest that, if a user is really interested in micro-managing its software, they may like to get involved with the Debian development teams. Alternatively, a user can have total version control if they run a distro such as Gentoo or Arch.


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