Install skype and virtualbox by default

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yatesco
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Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby yatesco » 11 Aug 2014 20:41

It would be great if skype was installed OOTB and configured (using the fantastic kwin magic) to display on all virtual desktops.

Sure, it is fairly trivial to install but I expect the majority of people use it.

Same suggestion for virtualbox (although I would be hesitant to suggest it is as popular as skype?).

I think in this wonderful day and age of almost every distro being sufficient, sometimes the difference between people using distro A and distro B is simply down to how many post-install tweaks are needed. I know I gave NetRunner a higher priority because these were installed OOTB.

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Orbmiser
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Orbmiser » 11 Aug 2014 22:15

Why is Skype forcing a software upgrade on all of us?

http://www.telecomstechnews.com/news/20 ... y-outrage/

Things like this and past history of Skype & Linux clashing in usability vs. version numbers. Makes it difficult and chancy to include as a default by Distro maintainers. Could be wrong but what I've read over last couple of years about Skype on linux would have me saying No if I was a maintainer.

Virtualbox is a separate issue. As many linux users are on older less capable machines to run it. I'm borderline with a Amd dual-core and 4gb of ram. Many main systems are even less capable than that. Including more limited HD space. I installed and used but found it not optimal for my needs as required 1 core and 2gb for it leaving me 1core and 2gigs for my linux side.

Could be way off base. But that is my take on it. Not enough need for the majority? As I never used Skype and only a tinkering of Virtualbox.

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yatesco
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby yatesco » 11 Aug 2014 22:46

HnHi orbmiser and thanks for your response.

Your point about skype being somewhat fiddly is exactly why I want the distro maintainer to manage it for me :).

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Zill
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Zill » 12 Aug 2014 14:31

yatesco wrote:It would be great if skype was installed OOTB and configured (using the fantastic kwin magic) to display on all virtual desktops.

Sure, it is fairly trivial to install but I expect the majority of people use it...
Please do not assume that others use the same software as you! Personally, I do not use Skype or VirtualBox and do not want either of these applications installed by default.

IMHO, a Linux distro should only have the minimum number of applications installed by default, sufficient to provide basic functionality. Obviously, we all have different ideas of exactly which applications these should be but, when Linux software is so easy to install, there is no need for "kitchen sink" distros chock-a-block with unwanted applications that just add bloat for many users with low-powered machines.

yatesco
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby yatesco » 12 Aug 2014 14:41

Another UK user! Hi (from Leicester) :).

I am not assuming everybody has the same defaults and uses the same packages as me. I am asserting that enough people use skype (given its popularity) *and* it has enough quirks (apt-get install skype isn't sufficient, or at least it wasn't a month ago) that it being configured OOTB would be useful.

As to distros being minimal, there is a whole religious way there, but I would guess that solydk isn't trying to be a minimal distro, we have arch, gentoo, debian server, ubuntu server etc. for that.

It's a tough one - too many and it gets crufty, not enough and the barrier to entry is too high. I would suggest the number of people who use skype and would appreciate it is greater than the number of people who would be inconvenienced by its presence.

But I don't know, I don't have any imperical evidence to support any of this, just a guess :).

As I said originally though, the fact that Netrunner came with skype and virtualbox and PlayOnLinux (for MS Office) was very compelling...

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Zero Angel
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Zero Angel » 12 Aug 2014 19:11

I like and use Skype myself, but I understand that it's basically a binary blob and binary blobs can be potentially insecure/backdoored (since there's no way to review the code), so one would want to reduce that possibility -- especially nowadays with the NSA/GCHQ's activities being more known (e.g. putting backdoors into software, undermining cryptography by weakening and providing compromised standards, performing man-in-the-middle attacks, etc), combined with Microsoft's history of cooperation with those agencies.

_q_
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby _q_ » 13 Aug 2014 06:31

thought i would sound off since i use both software packages but would be bothered by them being installed by default for me. the above reasons are plenty valid to not include.... there are more reasons.

i also feel a need to grumble about someone expecting even more free work to be done because they are wanting to be lazy... maybe i am just old and cranky.

SolydXK is such a delicious flavor of Debian!

yatesco
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby yatesco » 13 Aug 2014 08:04

Hi _q_, thanks for your thoughts.

First, I would love to hear why you think my motivation is out of laziness; my assertion was that maybe more people, particularly those new to Linux, would be attracted to Solydk if it had these installed.

Secondly, get a grip :). This is how open source works, I find something that jibes with me and then improve it. That could be through raising bug reports, feature requests or marketing it etc.. A very few highly skilled will actually be able to contribute code. All of that has an expectation of somebody else doing some work. The assumption is that they would want to do the work.

Solydk includes other "non-free" binary blobs like codecs out of convenience for the user. I am simply suggesting this is another one. Virtualbox is opensource so the argument isn't valid for that.

I *am* old and cranky so checky your assumptions :-). To be fair I am also a software engineer where laziness is actually seen as a good thing as it means we produce solutions to boring, repetitive problems, but that is another matter.


_q_ wrote:thought i would sound off since i use both software packages but would be bothered by them being installed by default for me. the above reasons are plenty valid to not include.... there are more reasons.

i also feel a need to grumble about someone expecting even more free work to be done because they are wanting to be lazy... maybe i am just old and cranky.

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Night Wing
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Night Wing » 13 Aug 2014 12:24

I'm one who has never used Skype and it's not installed on any of my linux distros. The reason being, I have to be at/on my computer to use Skype. If I want to call someone, I just pick up my cell or home digital phone (the device used will depend on where I'm calling to) and make the call. I don't have to actually see the person I will be talking to which is basically Skype's selling point.

_q_
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby _q_ » 13 Aug 2014 19:50

you asked for it.
Your point about skype being somewhat fiddly is exactly why I want the distro maintainer to manage it for me
sheer laziness.

as for getting a grip.... Skype is NOT Open Source. its proprietary and for profit... the dev here is already choked senseless with work and your downright rude, lazy and selfish attitude is disgusting.

dont preach to me about Open Source, you OBVIOUSLY dont get it. the way OS works is when you see something you think needs to be maintained and that others would like, YOU step up and maintain it if you have the skillset... if you dont, you find some other way YOU can HELP.

its NOT about getting someone else to do your work for you :roll:

as far as new people being attracted if things were installed... there has GOT to be a limit to what all goes in. frankly, Solyd is already a Kitchen Sink distro... pushed to the limits of rational (pushed nicely to that limit, mind you)... do you really suggest they go till all of the thousands of packages are installed by default just cause it makes it easier for lazy people? (it wont work, so dont get your hopes up.)

MS nor Apple installs HALF the stuff Solyd comes with by default, so your point is specious.

not only is Skype proprietary and for profit, but it IS a security hole... hooking people up with that by their default is not just wrong, but downright very_bad.

the audio codecs you mentioned are not the same kind of security risk that Skype is... and we will just leave that at that.

and as far as it being fiddly to set up, i am of the sincere opinion that this is only true when people get to configuring their Desktop Environment before they finish installing all the packages they are going to use... that's just bad form. when Skype is installed before customizations happen, it is trivial to do through apt (least it has been for me on the several machines i have made Solyd... maybe its just my Irish).

as for Virtual Box... on the three brand new laptops i have put Solyd on this year, i have had to manually enable Virtual Box Hooks in the BIOS... this right here makes installing it by default a trap for having it broken out of the box. some of the hooks are already installed for it in SolydXK, but there will always be some steps required for the end user to do to make it work unless the hardware changes again.

so yeah, "lazy" is the word i still have to describe your POV... you didnt even bother to think past your desire to not do work to even bother to think about why it would be a bad idea. even after a few users (some using the packages you are discussing) have come along and said why it would be bad, you STILL just dont want to "fiddle" with it yourself.

you are the one who needs to get a grip and also need to learn how Open Source works.

its Free like in speech, not Free like in beer :roll:

on a side note, i feel that Windows refugees need to learn a bit about how things get done with feathers rather than insisting Linux change to be like the crap they are used to using. in the South, there is a phrase that gets used a lot: "we dont care how you do it up North." it means things are different here, deal with it. part of why so many have fled *buntu is because they succeeded in becoming like Redmond in how they do things.

SolydXK is such a delicious flavor of Debian!

yatesco
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Joined: 10 Aug 2014 15:40

Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby yatesco » 13 Aug 2014 20:25

_q_ wrote:you asked for it.
No, I really didn't, and boy do I sure seem to have rubbed you up the wrong way! To be blunt though I think that is more about you than me.

If you (re-?)read my response you would see that I am clearing stating this wasn't motivated by my laziness, it was simply a suggestion that _maybe_ solydk would increase its appeal by including skype (and possibly) virtualbox out of the box, again, to repeat, out of desire to help move this pretty unique project forward. You know, raising feature requests as a way of contributing to open source.

As to being a Windows refugee, not really. Among my other jobs is designing and administering a private cloud (based on Xen) running, well, must be close to a hundred-odd virtual machines (Debian wheezy BTW) all managed by puppet. I haven't used Windows in years. I am more than capable of sorting this stuff out but my point is that lots of people wouldn't be so wouldn't it be nice if this sort of fiddly stuff was handled for me out of the box? Problems with pulse audio (solved by setting PULSE_LATENCY_MSEC to 60 for example), it not appearing on every virtual desktop, leaving the user thinking it isn't working - it is, only it is on a non-visible virtual desktop. This is solved by using kwin's rules matching on the window class name and defining a special rule for example.

Anyway, having been at this for a few decades I think I now recognise a situation where somebody has formed an idea and nothing will change their opinion, so let's leave it at that. Let's not degrade this forum anymore than it has been already - it is clear you are down as a "no" for this - great! However, let's keep the pretty antagonistic and personal stuff out. If you feel the need to continue in this vein then feel free to send me a private message.

_q_
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby _q_ » 13 Aug 2014 20:44

yatesco wrote:
First, I would love to hear why you think my motivation is out of laziness
:roll:

SolydXK is such a delicious flavor of Debian!

Deleted User 2763

Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 13 Aug 2014 21:52

What is default and what isn't is really moot when things install effortlessly using synaptic or the software manager (or apt or aptitude).
They are more of an issue if say, the distro developer has to create and maintain a package like in the case of picasa. There a gazillion step list to follow if you want it (when the one in the repo doesn't install). Then it would make sense to have it installed by default. The last time I installed skype is an effortless install from synaptic or the software manager (or apt or aptitude). I know virtualbox is effortless.
Suggestions are good (and welcome) but the final say is up to the SolydXK guys who develop and maintain the distro. Anything else is like wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

-Hinto

yatesco
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby yatesco » 13 Aug 2014 22:01

Thanks hinto for your thoughts.

I agree except for two things:
- Bob has very little time and knowing that something he uses comes OOTB is actually very valuable; the implication of it being OOTB is that there should be a higher confidence that it works. Pure marketing, but not to be underestimated I think. I am suggesting that there are enough Bobs around who use skype for this to play a part.
- Skype isn't trivial, at least if you want to use multiple virtual windows. Getting it and/or the conversation window to consistently open (and survive reboots) is, I dare say, beyond most newbies.

To be fair, skype in debian testing is pretty trivial. On Debian stable, good luck with that (and I believe the Business version is based on Debian stable).

As ever, these are just my opinions and I might be completely wrong :mrgreen:. To be honest, judging by most people's responses I think I might have either misjudged the tone of this forum or wildly missed the mark/completely mis-represented my original post :).

Anyways, thanks for your comments.
hinto wrote:What is default and what isn't is really moot when things install effortlessly using synaptic or the software manager (or apt or aptitude).
They are more of an issue if say, the distro developer has to create and maintain a package like in the case of picasa. There a gazillion step list to follow if you want it (when the one in the repo doesn't install). Then it would make sense to have it installed by default. The last time I installed skype is an effortless install from synaptic or the software manager (or apt or aptitude). I know virtualbox is effortless.
Suggestions are good (and welcome) but the final say is up to the SolydXK guys who develop and maintain the distro. Anything else is like wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

-Hinto

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Zero Angel
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Zero Angel » 13 Aug 2014 22:36

A few other things to consider.

- Most OOTB (out of the box) distros do include non-free things like flash and codecs. But these are things that (nearly) everyone uses.
- The preinstalled things which are the most valuable are typically those things which are more difficult, unintuitive, or convoluted to install (if even slightly convoluted, like knowing what the package name of flash or the codecs are).
- Skype and Virtualbox are not unintuitive or convoluted to install normally. There's no googling needed, just "sudo apt-get install skype virtualbox" or search for em in your favorite package manager.

- Since Skype/VBox do not meet the first two criteria, combined with the fact that they're binary blobs, means that they are lower priority than something like preinstalled Flash or codecs might be.

On the other hand, good default apps do make a good positive impression. I was pleasantly suprised to find that nearly all apps that were on the LiveDVD were ones that I would normally use.

Deleted User 2763

Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 14 Aug 2014 00:16


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ilu
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby ilu » 06 Sep 2014 23:45

I'm a bit late to this discussion but I can't refrain from stating my opinion: Skype is spyware and owned by M$. If you don't believe me google it. These are exactly the reasons why I try to leave windows and fiddle around with Linux. I'm certainly not going to trust a distro that has THAT installed. And picking a distro is about trust above everything else.

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Snap
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Snap » 07 Sep 2014 01:00

Same here. Skype is not allowed in my systems and I don't like to see it pre-installed in distros.

VirtualBox. I'm an addict, but I don't think it should be installed by default, But 100% favor having the Guest editions pre-installed.
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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zerozero
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby zerozero » 07 Sep 2014 10:30

we welcome all suggestions but these 2 pieces of software (for completely different reasons) won't be part of SolydXK default installations.
bliss of ignorance

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Snap
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Re: Install skype and virtualbox by default

Postby Snap » 07 Sep 2014 11:09

Perfect for me. Whatever the reasons are. :mrgreen:
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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