Plymouth should be disabled by default

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gidyn
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Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby gidyn » 17 Feb 2015 09:41

I recently installed SolydK on two ThinkPads (Nvidia Optimus):
  1. Both the live DVD and installed OS booted into a blank screen from which it was impossible to bring up a GUI or console unless Plymouth was disabled.
  2. SolydK would boot into a GUI, but it was extremely low resolution, and the desktop was several times the size of the physical display.
I respectfully propose that Plymouth should be disabled by default until it works (to the extent that we can reasonably determine) on all hardware.

For the record, Mint 17.1 boots on the same laptops without any issues. I think it's using an older version of Plymouth.

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Zill
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby Zill » 17 Feb 2015 12:17

I too believe that Plymouth should be disabled by default as it is very desirable when installing a new distro to see exactly what is happening during boot.

Once the system has been installed and updated it should then be configured to meet the user's requirements. Only after the fully-installed system has been verified to run correctly is it appropriate to enable Plymouth IMHO.

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just
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby just » 17 Feb 2015 12:36

Zill wrote:I too believe that Plymouth should be disabled by default as it is very desirable when installing a new distro to see exactly what is happening during boot..
i know many people who are scared, even terrified by the amount of text scrolling in terminal during boot. they even avoid to give linux a simple try, only because they don't understand them, don't know how to avoid them, how to consult them later (the text scrolls too fast) and thus, don't want to see them at all.

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Zill
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby Zill » 17 Feb 2015 12:40

just: ... But the people you refer to are also unlikely to ever install Windows! Part of the "learning process" with running a Linux system involves learning new things... such as not being "terrified by the amount of text scrolling in terminal during boot." ;-)

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MAYBL8
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby MAYBL8 » 17 Feb 2015 12:41

Ok I had to weigh in on this.
There are a couple of issues here.
1. Solydxk right now has issues on some computers to be able to install and run with Plymouth enabled. I've had this problem myself. So turning it off for that reason makes sense.
2. Many people that are coming to this distro or any linux distro are coming from a MAC or Windows environment. They are not used to seeing or knowing how their computer works. They just want it to work. These are the people that Plymouth is for.
What do you guys think?


gidyn
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby gidyn » 17 Feb 2015 12:58

Booting into an blank screen is a lot scarier than seeing some text scroll past during the boot.

In any case, I don't get lots of text scrolling while booting without Plymouth. Just a few lines, then the SolydK progress screen comes up.

belgiumsolydk
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby belgiumsolydk » 17 Feb 2015 13:24

+1 for removal of Plymouth

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FinnFann
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby FinnFann » 17 Feb 2015 13:28

Agreed. I mean give an option for it during install still, perhaps, but default it to off, and maybe note issues.

Plymouth has always had issues on raw debian systems. While it is pretty, it just seems to cause issues. That being said, these issues are present on distros like Fedora and Ubuntu right now (if you update to latest without installing proprietary drivers). So they should get fixed fast...but might not make it to debian due to the freeze. Either way it does seem to be a sore spot of problems at the moment.
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kurotsugi
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby kurotsugi » 17 Feb 2015 13:47

how about both? :3

my proposal: plymouth will still be used on livecd. our devs loves it and many of solydxk users love it too. so lets keep it on the livecd. meanwhile, user will get prompted during installation whether if he want to use plymouth or not. in this way both side could get what he want.

what's left is how to use livecd on nvidia graphic. I believe it can be solved easily by create a note in the download page that nvidia user need to disable plymouth by adding "nosplash" or "noplymouth" on the boot parameter and that they need to uninstall plymouth. indeed, there will be more works for nvidia user but I don't have better idea to satisfy both side.

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FinnFann
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby FinnFann » 17 Feb 2015 14:02

kurotsugi wrote:how about both? :3

my proposal: plymouth will still be used on livecd. our devs loves it and many of solydxk users love it too. so lets keep it on the livecd. meanwhile, user will get prompted during installation whether if he want to use plymouth or not. in this way both side could get what he want.

what's left is how to use livecd on nvidia graphic. I believe it can be solved easily by create a note in the download page that nvidia user need to disable plymouth by adding "nosplash" or "noplymouth" on the boot parameter and that they need to uninstall plymouth. indeed, there will be more works for nvidia user but I don't have better idea to satisfy both side.
Well part of the other issue is new users with plymouth issues won't even be able to boot the liveCD in that case. And they seem uneasy about using the advanced menu to find the still-present no plymouth boot option. Maybe we should make those options more attractive for those with boot issues.
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gidyn
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby gidyn » 17 Feb 2015 14:04

Somebody who boots the live DVD, and just gets a blank screen, will not necessarily know about advanced options that could have made it work. It has to work for as many systems as possible by default.

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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 17 Feb 2015 14:05

kurotsugi wrote:meanwhile, user will get prompted during installation whether if he want to use plymouth or not. in this way both side could get what he want.
This is no longer true in the 32-bit versions. In those, Plymouth is installed by default. Personally, I don't like Plymouth and usually opt out during the installation (I use 64-bit computers) but for 32-bit computers, you can disable plymouth using the plymouth manager if you rather not use it.

kurotsugi
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby kurotsugi » 17 Feb 2015 14:28

anyway, if you want the issue fixed in debian please file the bug report here https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgrepo ... e=plymouth

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fleabus
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby fleabus » 17 Feb 2015 17:51

My system is Nvidia 9600m/GT. Plymouth works fine on it. But I don't like to use splash screens, so Plymouth is always the first thing to go. I was a bit dismayed to find that there is now no selectable "Boot Without Plymouth" option.

However, as the ISO booted, I hit Enter to stop the countdown, then hit Tab to edit the boot parameters, removed the word "splash" from that line, pressed Enter, and the ISO booted without Plymouth enabled. Later, I discovered (by happy accident!) that this preference carried over to the newly installed system. Plymouth was installed but disabled on the fresh install, as it was on earlier ISOs after checking "Disable Plymouth" during the final part of the install. The installer's final wording, "do not install plymouth" has always been a bit misleading as it was always installed -- only disabled. I'm ok with that for myself, but I can certainly see the difficulty should someone be greeted with a blank screen upon booting the ISO.

I can always purge it later as I did before. Not a real necessity, as long as Plymouth remains disabled I'm fine with that I suppose.... I just like to get rid of software I'm not using. Indeed, purging Plymouth completely kills Xorg on a couple of my systems with Intel video, and I've not yet been able to restore it, or discover the reason why -- it wipes X out so badly that I can't even get any video in command-line rescue mode, nor do any modesetting parameters work! On those systems I had to give up, reinstall, and leave Plymouth installed/disabled, to my chagrin... :? :shock:

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Snap
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby Snap » 17 Feb 2015 18:21

I'd love to have the option during installation, whether it works perfectly well or has plenty of issues. I just don't want it around. It just a cosmetic thing that serves for nothing else than masking the booting process.
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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Snap
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby Snap » 17 Feb 2015 18:31

Booting into an blank screen is a lot scarier than seeing some text scroll past during the boot.
Fully agreed
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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fleabus
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby fleabus » 17 Feb 2015 18:37

Snap wrote:I'd love to have the option during installation ....It just a cosmetic thing that serves for nothing else than masking the booting process.
Agreed, I'm a function over form person, which is part of the reason I never got any good with themes. Aesthetics ain't my bag. I'd like to not have to deal with Plymouth at all, but I'm firmly entrenched -- in the minority. :lol:

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Zill
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby Zill » 17 Feb 2015 21:03

fleabus: There's nothing wrong with us being in the minority. ;-)
"argumentum ad populum" is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely held is not necessarily a guarantee that the belief is correct; if the belief of any individual can be wrong, then the belief held by multiple persons can also be wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

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fleabus
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby fleabus » 18 Feb 2015 02:25

Bravo! I think it was Janeane Garofalo who said that the masses are not arbiters of the sublime, so it's incumbent upon us not to fit in -- "...if you behave in a manner pleasing to most, then you are probably doing something wrong." :lol: :twisted:

I'm one of these odd ducks who always finds myself in a niche somewhere -- but I'll gladly take function over form any day of the year... 8-) :mrgreen:

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Snap
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Re: Plymouth should be disabled by default

Postby Snap » 18 Feb 2015 04:13

I'm one of these odd ducks who usually doesn't fit in with the rest of the geese
Are you talking of me, don't you? :lol:
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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