Keeping LibreOffice updated

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MAYBL8
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Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby MAYBL8 » 03 Sep 2015 11:31

Schoelje,
This is more directed at you than anyone else. I will help if you can tell me what to do.
I know you keep us updated on Firefox and Thunderbird.
Is it just as easy to keep Libreoffice updated?
It is also one of the main packages that comes with most Linux operating systems and I know they update their stable version every so often. I think the latest stable right now is version 5.
I think this would also be a good selling point for SolydXK.
Thanks
Dan


kurotsugi
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby kurotsugi » 03 Sep 2015 14:33

+1

I think many user will love it. since LO is on backport it should be easy to grab it and use it on solydxk. maintainance wise, i don't see any technical problem of it. we could run the system like any other backport user out there. however, grabbing something from backport means adding some instability risk to our system. I'm not sure if all user will agree with this idea.

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Zill
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Zill » 03 Sep 2015 15:09

-1

There are plenty of distros out there with later software based on testing or sid, including our own SolydXK EE. However, those users who choose to run the official SolydXK main editions expect the consistency and reliability of using the Debian stable base and accept that this means that they are not using the "latest and greatest" applications.

Adding packages from other releases, such as Debian testing, can lead to problems and, as such, should only be done with the specific consent of the user. This is why optional backports are available with SolydXK and should, IMO, be the correct way later packages are introduced to a SolydXK system.

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Arjen Balfoort
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 03 Sep 2015 15:17

Indeed, this is up to the community. Technically it's no problem installing LO from backports for our ISOs. I'm running my personal system with it.

However, I can imagine that users that rely on their systems for their work prefer stability over an up to date office suite. This is the main reason I'm very hesitant to add anything from backports on our ISOs and like Zill mentioned above: if you need LO to be up to date, you can either use the EEs or install manually with a single line:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install -t jessie-backports libreoffice


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kurotsugi
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby kurotsugi » 03 Sep 2015 15:33

IMO all the arguments are loud and clear. I'm not sure if we can get an agreement on this topic. time to create a poll? :3

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Zill
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Zill » 03 Sep 2015 16:32

Of course, if SolydXK is changed as suggested, it will be necessary to update text on the home page from this...
Stable and Secure

SolydXK is based on Debian Stable to provide the most stable and secure operating system available.
To this...
Partly stable and could be secure

SolydXK is based on Debian Stable and Testing to provide the most stable and secure FrankenDebian system available.
;)

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Arjen Balfoort
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 03 Sep 2015 16:37

Indeed, and that's not something I'd like to do.
As a compromise I could make the backports install of LO possible from the welcome screen.


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Zill
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Zill » 03 Sep 2015 16:40

Schoelje wrote:As a compromise I could make the backports install of LO possible from the welcome screen.
That sounds far better to me. :-)

p.s. I would also add a warning about the risks of using packages from backports!

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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 03 Sep 2015 16:51



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MAYBL8
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby MAYBL8 » 03 Sep 2015 16:52

I didn't really mean for this to get into a debate about stability of the distro.
What version of Firefox is shipped with Debian Stable?
I don't believe it is the one we are running now.
Why is one package ok to update and another one not?
I guess I am confused on this.
I understand about backports and such and increasing the risk of stability but that was not intented in my OP.
I am almost sorry I asked the question.
Thanks guys
Dan


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Arjen Balfoort
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 03 Sep 2015 17:02

Don't be sorry. Discussion is always a good thing as long as it's done with respect and that's absolutely the case here.

Firefox, Thunderbird and Flash are not available in the Debian repositories. So, I've always built them from source.

The ESR version is used in the official SolydXK version. This version only receives security updates.
I also provide the regular version but users will have to install that one them selves.

This is also done for Thunderbird and Flash.


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belze
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby belze » 03 Sep 2015 17:18

Schoelje wrote: Firefox, Thunderbird and Flash are not available in the Debian repositories. So, I've always built them from source.

The ESR version is used in the official SolydXK version. This version only receives security updates.
I also provide the regular version but users will have to install that one them selves.

This is also done for Thunderbird and Flash.
i had the same question. Thanks for your clear reply!
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MAYBL8
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby MAYBL8 » 03 Sep 2015 17:59

Ok Thanks for the reassurance on the discussion.
I have installed Debian before and you are correct they provide iceweasel. Which I think is a scaled down Firefox.
I am always learning.
Sometimes I speak before I look. My bad.

Well back to my main point.
So stable is where the distro wants to be as the community speaks its voice.
So lets route this conversation in another direction.
I can go look this up I guess but if anyone knows....
Versions of LO in these distros?
Ubunu Stable?
Fedora Stable?
Linux Mint Stable?
Not sure what others fit the bill.
I imagine if they are following the same Debian stable we are then they have the same version we have.
And before you flame me I know Fedora is not Debian.
Thanks
Dan


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Zill
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Zill » 03 Sep 2015 19:30

MAYBL8 wrote:... I have installed Debian before and you are correct they provide iceweasel. Which I think is a scaled down Firefox.
Iceweasel and Icedove are not scaled down versions of Firefox and Thunderbird as they both have exactly the same core code and functionality. They also happily run Firefox/Thunderbird extensions.

The differences between the two simply relate to branding, trademarks and licensing. Just really things that concern lawyers, rather than users. ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_C ... an_project
MAYBL8 wrote:... Versions of LO in these distros?
Ubunu Stable?
Fedora Stable?
Linux Mint Stable?
Not really relevant as neither Ubuntu, Fedora nor the main edition of Linux Mint are based on Debian Stable. Only Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) is based on Debian Stable and, not surprisingly, that has exactly the same version of LibreOffice as SolydXK (4.3.3-2+deb8u1).

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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby palimmo » 03 Sep 2015 21:04

I moved to Libreoffice via debian backports a few months ago.
So far so good (version: 4.4.5.2). Waiting (impatiently) for the 5.0 version.
Proud user of SolydK!

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kurotsugi
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby kurotsugi » 03 Sep 2015 22:28

no worries...some distros based on debian are indeed having newest LO and several other stuff (kernel, firefox, etc. some of them even offer newest plasma and xfce. nice!) out of the box as their selling point. in fact, it's not only debian. lot of branch distro actually doing this. i'm not sure about mint but AFAIK ubuntu LTS is using old LO. mint user can get newest stuff from various PPA. I never heard mint is having newest LO so I assume they go with PPA route (similar with debian + backport).

in summarize, the idea itself is fine. it can be done easily by the distro maintainer (so there's no problem on this side). it's just a matter whether if the community decided to do it or not :3

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Zill
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Zill » 04 Sep 2015 10:42

kurotsugi wrote:... in summarize, the idea itself is fine. it can be done easily by the distro maintainer (so there's no problem on this side). it's just a matter whether if the community decided to do it or not :3
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this.

The main (official) editions of SolydXK are based on Debian Stable and so inherit all the reliability of using stable packages (as defined by Debian!). It would therefore be irresponsible for SolydXK to dilute this reliability by introducing packages from any Debian release other than Stable. On a practical level, this would also make maintenance and subsequent support far more difficult.

While some other distros (including SolydXK EE) may have later packages, they are not based on Debian Stable. Ubuntu (including LTS) is certainly not and, as the main edition of Mint is based on Ubuntu, neither is Mint.

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MAYBL8
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby MAYBL8 » 04 Sep 2015 11:59

Zill,
I understand your point. And I do recognize you handle the majority of the support request of the community. Which I am grateful for you doing this.
However we are a community and not a dictatorship. Shouldn't the community decide?
I guess we should first let the community decide if we even want to offer this as an option?
Thanks
Dan


kurotsugi
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby kurotsugi » 04 Sep 2015 12:11

that was clearly _your_ own opinion and _your_ own definition of solydxk and debian :3

no matter how you saw it 'backport' is part of debian stable and in fact it's not usable other than on debian stable. I'm a bit lazy to re-explain these stuff but i think there are some stuff need to be emphasized.

1. schoelje already said he has no problem doing it
2. schoelje left the decision on the community

i know that you love 'stability' but it would be nice if you can start to accept other's idea. debian stable isn't the only stable distro, isn't it? it's not the first time i saw another user doesn't feel comfortable by the way you promote 'stability' and debian stable.

...and obviously

3. the decision have been made (which IMO should satisfy both side) : user can install newest LO from sws.

so...there's no point to further attack (may i use this term?) me, dan, or any other member who want to use other than pure debian testing :3

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Zill
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Re: Keeping LibreOffice updated

Postby Zill » 04 Sep 2015 14:19

MAYBL8: I fully agree that "we are a community and not a dictatorship". My position is simply that it was decided some time ago that the official main edition of SolydXK is based on Debian Stable. This can, of course, be changed by "the community" if someone is prepared to do this and then support the resulting distro. However, I do believe that it is impractical to have a new SolydXK that is partly based on Debian Stable and partly based on something else!

The whole point of Debian Stable is that packages are basically unchanging for the life of the release and this advantage will be lost if packages from other releases are incorporated, resulting in the infamous FrankenDebian! While such a system may appeal to some (hobby) users, I do believe it would alienate many more as they would no longer be able to rely on SolydXK to do real-world tasks reliably.

kurotsugi: My "opinion" on Debian Stable is based on the following published documents and, as long as SolydXK is based on this release, I do expect it to retain similar attributes.

From the Debian FAQ "Choosing a Debian distribution":
If security or stability are at all important for you: install stable. period. This is the most preferred way.
...
Stable is rock solid. It does not break and has full security support. But it not might have support for the latest hardware.
From Debian Wiki "DebianStability":
Understand that the job of Debian is, and always has been, to produce Stable. The other releases are means to that end.
From Debian Wiki "Don't suffer from Shiny New Stuff Syndrome":
The reason that Debian Stable is so reliable is because software is extensively tested and bug-fixed before being included. This means that the most recent version of software is often not available in the Stable repositories. But it doesn't mean that the software is too old to be useful!
From Debian Backports ›› Instructions:
Backports cannot be tested as extensively as Debian stable, and backports are provided on an as-is basis, with risk of incompatibilities with other components in Debian stable. Use with care!

It is therefore recommended to select single backported packages that fit your needs, and not use all available backports.
I am quite happy having backports available with SolydXK, I just don't think it is appropriate to install any such packages by default.

Please don't think my comments are "attacking" anyone as this was not my intention. If anyone wishes to use any other distro then this is fine by me. I even accept that some people think a rolling distro can be "stable" (Manjaro anyone?) but, regretfully, I cannot do this myself. ;-)

So, my apologies to anyone I have offended. If "the community" wishes to change SolydXK to a different basis then that is OK - it is just not something I am likely to support.


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