kdenext going to be dropped

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Santa
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kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Santa » 20 May 2014 17:57

Hello,

one day ago I got a private message notyfing me that kdenext is going to be discontinued
http://solydxk.nl/the-future-of-solydk-kdenext/

I would like to say that:
  • This decision was taken without even asking me (I'm a KDE developer and packager and current maintainer of kdenext).
  • As a person who have some experience developing and packaging KDE: it's a very bad idea.
  • To avoid the pain it might mean to KDE users and developers I'm considering to continue the kdenext builds for SolydK unofficially outside SolydK, but I would like to hear some opinions first.
  • Needless to say, if the persons behind this decision want (anytime, today or in 6 months or in 10 years) to correct this, they will have my full support.
Sometimes, standing for what you believe means standing alone.

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MAYBL8
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby MAYBL8 » 20 May 2014 18:14

To the KDE Users of SolydK.
Here is the history of how we got to KDENext:
http://forums.solydxk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=431
I hope maybe those of us who want to be more current with KDE and don't mind some breakages now and then will be able to find an alternative like this one was before Solyd picked it up.
Thanks Santa for your effort during the last year or so and to the Team for keeping us as current as could be.
Dan


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fleabus
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby fleabus » 20 May 2014 19:03

Not being a distro maintainer, This is too far above my pay grade/experience level. The decision has been made. And Blogged. I have to go with Schoelje's decision on this, more thoroughly tested/stable over bleeding edge.

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pnlarsson
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby pnlarsson » 20 May 2014 20:33

Hi,

I'm going to miss getting the latest and most cutting edge KDE - it's fun and cool to play with the latest goodies.

So I hope that either there will be a way to get the latest KDE anyway (like the testing repo) or that SolydK will revert this change.

/niklas

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stelios
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby stelios » 20 May 2014 20:46

Santa wrote:Hello,
To avoid the pain it might mean to KDE users and developers I'm considering to continue the kdenext builds for SolydK unofficially outside SolydK, but I would like to hear some opinions first.
Personally, I appreciate that and thank you very much. Also, thank you for all the work you have done so far. As a KDE user, whose only gripe with Debian was and still is the annoyingly slow pace of KDE packaging, i would use such a repository, especially since semantic desktop is crucial to me and i would really like, for example, to move to KDE 4.13. The main reason however is that, as someone who loves KDE, i simply can't wait until, finally, Debian rolls out a new version. It's painfully slow.

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fleabus
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby fleabus » 20 May 2014 20:47

pnlarsson wrote:So I hope that either there will be a way to get the latest KDE anyway
There is always a way. Anyway, If I understand correctly, what Santa is saying is that he is prepared to continue on with an unofficial kdenext for Solyd. IMO that is an extremely kind offer.

@Santa, may I echo stelios' sentiment ... Much appreciation for all the work you have already done as well. :D

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stelios
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby stelios » 21 May 2014 02:02

What if the kdenext repository remained as an optional one. Meaning, disabled by default but present in the software sources. This way Solydk would roll out with the super stable and extensively tested Debian version, while offering the option for anyone interested to update it to the latest, cutting edge version, at his own risk. I would gladly volunteer for testing that one.

Deleted User 2764

Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 21 May 2014 02:26

First, I want thank you, Santa, for your hard work on KDE (my favorite DE) and with SolydK.

Now for my 2 cents on the subject:

I use my computer for everything. Normal internet stuff, development (I work from home for a web hosting company doing web and other development, LAMP server administration, etc.), and also I am learning to program in Python/Glade/GTK (I hope some day to learn qt as well). In addition, as seen in my user bar, I'm on the SolydXK Testing Team. So this all keeps me quite busy. :D I have 3 installations on my computer: production (for everyday and development), SolydX testing and SolydK testing. Also I have SolydX and SolydK Virtual Machines I can clone and use for various projects and tests.

I remember the last time they pushed an upgrade to KDE to an UP. We didn't get time to test it. I was surprised and concerned due to lack of testing. I was hoping it would wait until next UP and we'd have time to really dig in and sniff out the bugs, but alas, it was not meant to be. I remember I was eager to have the latest KDE though so I wasn't really complaining. Just concerned about untested stuff going production.

Thinking about it all, I'm with Schoelje on not putting the latest and greatest out right away. I really think with something as important as a desktop environment, we need to have the time to thoroughly test it out and find what will need fixing before it goes production.

I do greatly respect your work, Santa. As I said, KDE is my favorite DE. I think it's great to have a choice so that those who want it can get the latest if they choose (I remember when I was running Mint I added the official KDE repo so I got updates to KDE directly from them). But these days, I am content with sticking to what is in our production and testing repos. I am quite busy these days so I don't want to put too many irons in the fire and compromise what I already have going due to lack of time. However, I do wish you all the best on going off on the side and maybe some here may help you with it.

I think SolydXK is a great distro and has a lot of great potential. It's main selling/marketing point is both rolling distribution and stability. I think I can understand from that standpoint why Schoelje made the decision. While some of us are power users, as such, there are going to (hopefully) be a lot of new users coming over from Windows or distro-hopping and they will need to have a great first impression. That means SolydXK has to maintain as much stablility in the software as posible.

While KDE is great and relatively stable (at least on my system), there have been some bugs which luckily I have found work-arounds for. These can sometimes frustrate new users. It would be great to have a SolydX and SolydK CE (Cutting Edge) but I don't think Schoelje and team have the time to maintain it. If they had more help, would people be interested in helping out? And what would that do to the marketability of Solyd to the general masses who are distro hopping or leaving Windows? Too many choices already confuse people. Having simply home and business editions is simpler and easier to market.

So while I know it's sudden (surprised me too, actually), and I can appreciate both sides of this situation, I personally am with Schoelje on this but also hope Santa continues his work with the community and maybe gets some folks to help out.

After all, that's what Linux is about - people going forward with their ideas. That's how SolydXK came about from what I understand (forked from Mint LMDE?)

Best wishes to you, Santa and thank you.

Deleted User 2764

Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 21 May 2014 02:28

stelios wrote:What if the kdenext repository remained as an optional one. Meaning, disabled by default but present in the software sources. This way Solydk would roll out with the super stable and extensively tested Debian version, while offering the option for anyone interested to update it to the latest, cutting edge version, at his own risk. I would gladly volunteer for testing that one.
We cross-posted. :) I was thinking the same, but wondering maybe Schoelje and team wouldn't have time to maintain another repo. Who could help them with that? And where would it be hosted? Bandwidth costs? etc. Just some things I know I'd be concerned about if I were running a distro (which thankfully I'm not since I think I'd go bananas - it's a lot of hard work!)

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pnlarsson
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby pnlarsson » 21 May 2014 06:53

stelios wrote:What if the kdenext repository remained as an optional one. Meaning, disabled by default but present in the software sources. This way Solydk would roll out with the super stable and extensively tested Debian version, while offering the option for anyone interested to update it to the latest, cutting edge version, at his own risk. I would gladly volunteer for testing that one.
+1 and this repo would oinly contain the stuff needed for kdenext - so it won't be the whole distro.

/niklas

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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby kurotsugi » 21 May 2014 09:34

from what I saw, kde in solydxk tends to die quickly for someone following debian testing. it was die in the middle of last UP and it doesn't even last for 1 month in current UP. it now die after debian testing got latest KDM and other KDE packages (http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php? ... &start=120) in order to keep kdenext in solydxk we'll need to make sure kdenext is work both for UP follower and testing follower.

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Santa
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Santa » 21 May 2014 10:03

Hi,

I have an opinion about your opinions but I will keep it for myself for now, I guess I will wait for you to discuss the matter and post them later. Instead I will add more information and clarify a couple of things:
fleabus wrote:
pnlarsson wrote:So I hope that either there will be a way to get the latest KDE anyway
If I understand correctly, what Santa is saying is that he is prepared to continue on with an unofficial kdenext for Solyd...
[snip]
That's correct, I'm pondering about the convenience of doing that or not.
MAYBL8 wrote:To the KDE Users of SolydK.
Here is the history of how we got to KDENext:
http://forums.solydxk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=431
[snip]
Since you mention the origins, and apparently some people forgot versy easily why kdenext exists, I'm attaching the first three "chapters" of the kdenext origins, the discussions happened in public in the #solydxk IRC channel of Freenode. I know the IRC logs are long and sometimes a bit hard to read, but please have some time to read them.
Attachments
kdenext_origins_vol3.txt
(11.28 KiB) Downloaded 101 times
kdenext_origins_vol2.txt
(2.46 KiB) Downloaded 80 times
kdenext_origins_vol1.txt
(13.47 KiB) Downloaded 95 times
Sometimes, standing for what you believe means standing alone.

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Santa
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Santa » 21 May 2014 10:07

Since I can just attach three files in a message, I'm attaching in this one the other three remaining IRC logs. The 6th volume ends in August 2, 2013. If I remember correctly, a few days after, we got the first SolydK version with kdenext providing kde 4.10.5 (whitout kdenext it would be providing kde 4.8.4, which was like 1 year old then).
http://solydxk.com/up-2013-08-06-1200-utc/
Attachments
kdenext_origins_vol6.txt
(9.7 KiB) Downloaded 82 times
kdenext_origins_vol5.txt
(5.9 KiB) Downloaded 80 times
kdenext_origins_vol4.txt
(4.32 KiB) Downloaded 86 times
Sometimes, standing for what you believe means standing alone.

kurotsugi
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby kurotsugi » 21 May 2014 13:16

with debian's "always releasable testing" policy, debian testing is becomes boring. the migration rate becomes lot slower and lots of packages can't migrate to testing. I'm on the side of anyone who want to get newer kde in solydxk. nevertheless, I'd like to hear schoeljoe responses before we continue our discussion :3

I'm just a spectator without any right or power to create any decision regarding the future of solydxk and kdenext. IMO there should be discussion between both (kdenext and solydxk) party. we can decide what to do next later after both party made some agreement about this issue. the unstability issue with debian testing IMO is no more than technical matter and could be fixed easily. for an example, we can split kdenext to kdenext-up and kdenext-testing. the kdenext-up will got frozen along with other snapshot of debian testing while kdenext-testing will fully rolling along with debian testing. in that way, UP follower still get their 'stability' while the testing follower will got their problem fixed faster. kdenext will also get more test, hence make it more robust for next UP.

nevertheless, before we move into these stuff...as I've explained above, both party have to made agreement about the future of kdenext and the commitment of both party if they decided to keep kdenext on solydxk. we can't continue without these agreement :3

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Zill
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Zill » 21 May 2014 14:12

I first used KDE around 2000 with Mandrake 7.1 and, since then, have used various versions of KDE over the years with Mepis and Kubuntu.

Unfortunately, I eventually came to the conclusion that KDE was just too blingy, bloated and buggy for my purposes and so settled on other DE/WMs such as Gnome, XFCE, Mate and Openbox.

On this basis, I cannot really add much to this particular debate other than to say that I believe that KDE needs far more attention with debugging existing code, rather than adding new features.

In my view, stability and reliability are what KDE is missing and this is also evidenced by the far greater number of support problems with SolydK (rather than with SolydX) on these forums.

Deleted User 2763

Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Deleted User 2763 » 21 May 2014 14:31

I've had the opposite experience.
When I started using Linux (Debian Woody) KDE (albeit v3) was the only DM that didn't crash.
The fact that KDE is stable and reliable in SID speaks volumes.

The rest just boils down to preferences (for the most part).
BTW... SolydXK Oxygen looks great in in X and K.
-Hinto

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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby PopeBishop » 21 May 2014 15:49

I like cutting edge just as much as the next guy, but given the choice between stability and bling, I'll take stability every time.
KDE is a great DE, in fact it's my go to desktop for every distro I've been on, yes I've had issues with it; my system has been borked because of some freak bug that would rear it's ugly little head; kmix would randomly stop working, and other random bugs. I'm okay with that, it happens, but to throw something that hasn't been fully tested into production I can only imagine the breakages I would have.
I fully support Schoelje in not wanting to rush out the latest cutting/bleeding edge DE. The desktop is far too important a piece of the overall puzzle to rush it out under or untested. There are some things that can be pushed out in such a state, but the DE isn't one of them, and I personally would rather wait for the testing to finish than have my system give me the big "f you".
Proper password hygiene is key to a secure system


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fleabus
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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby fleabus » 21 May 2014 15:57

Removed - Redundant

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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 21 May 2014 16:06

I think that's a great idea to wait a little bit until Schoelje decides if he wants to elaborate more on this decision.

Personally, I love KDE because it's familiar. I used it back in the Madrake/Red Hat days (way back). I have tried Cinnamon, Gnome, and Unity and found even in a VM those seemed to not work well or else they were harder to use. KDE is easiest for me to use and get some work done. And I am very interested in the "bling" aspect because I don't want something that I personally view as "ugly" distracting me from my work. So I want something that I can easily configure. KDE still has it's bugs (extracting a password protected zip file and get the password wrong and sometimes Ark would crash), for example). But it's familiar. I have it set up to look much like Windows Vista/7 (using the "seven" window decoration and Air for Netbooks Desktop Theme). This makes my system look nice, and less distracting so I can get work done. Also the fonts are the right size, not overly bolded. And I love using Dolphin as it works well for me and has the features I need without too much extra configuration.

So having a stable, usable KDE for me is important. I would love to get the latest as soon as possible so I could get any bug fixes and new features but I'm willing to wait (if the bugs aren't too annoying or detrimental to my work).

Being that I came from years of using Windows, stability and overall aesthetics are important for me.

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Re: kdenext going to be dropped

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 21 May 2014 16:40

Reverting to Debian-KDE is one of the decisions the SolydXK team made, and will make, to comply to our business mission.
All team discussions, and resulting decisions, are strategic of nature, and hardly ever technological. The team proposes any questions to the community as long as the question is aligned with the strategy. It's the team's responsibility to guarantee SolydXK's continuity.

Unfortunately, this means that we sometimes have to make unpopular decisions in order to guarantee the continuity, and stability of SolydXK.


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